Re: Charging for PostgreSQL

Hi Jim/Melvin and all,

Music industry is a good example where too low charges has damaged it. People in the industry will tell you that not
enoughyoung talent are coming through the system. I do agree that there is some corruption but there is no escaping the
factthat the industry's turn over has seen a massive decline.   

Sun Microsystem is even a closer example and why Oracle has taken Google to court over java licenses. Basically they
needto make money to support product developments.  

Even the community version has costs associated with it.

Incidentally the original posting was hoping to replicate the success of Ubuntu and their use of code of conduct.

Hence my comments about issues that will help the success of PostgreSQL more directly.

I for one would not ignore code of conduct if there was one. Hopefully others would have the courtesy to do the same.

Hope this clarifies all the points.








-----Original Message-----
From: James Keener [mailto:jim@jimkeener.com]
Sent: 06 January 2016 15:54
To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Karsten Hilbert'; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Charging for PostgreSQL

As Melvin mentioned, this belongs in a new thread.

> Just one last example. Consider the music industry. For years Apple amongst others promoted low cost per unit
downloadsand then streaming. We all know the history.  
>
> Once a thriving industry music industry has been decimated. Neither the musicians nor song writers receive proper
incomeany more.   
> All the major players recognise its current state is unsustainable.
So? In an odd twist of things, the developers here are either being paid to work on PostgreSQL or are _volunteering_
theirtime. It would be extremely rude to take their _volunteered_ time and profit from it. 
Ditto for support, such as this forum and the IRC channel.

We can debate the music industry all day. My view is that it's inefficient, corrupt, and poorly managed. A more
streamlinedsystem would result in more money to the artists themselves. They are not a good comparison to a F/OSS
project.

> *I am sure neither of us want to see postgresql to falter.*
And I have no idea how you think charging for PostgreSQL won't make it falter. People will move to other free databases
ormove to paid offerings along the thought process of "no one was ever fired for buying ibm" 

> Of course the right balance needs to be struck but for me at least the idea of free lunch has had its day.
How does PostgreSQL being free affect you in a _negative_ way? This "free lunch" is the reason we have the technology
andworld that we do. 
I'm honestly curious why you have an issue with this. Not charging for code has not prevented a plethora of other
projectsfrom having a growing community. Those issues become moot when you force the community to disappear. We need to
understandwhat keeps new devs away and fix it 
-- not simply force everyone away.

> There can be a low enough charge that people don't feel too much of a pinch but enough to sustain the progress of
postgresql.
No. There can't. Going from free to anything will decrease your user base, especially when there are free alternatives
andvery large, and 
(unfortunately) trusted names you can pay for a database. I've dealt with this at many companies.

> I genuinely don't like arguments over emails. These are complex issues.
I personally find it easier than arguing in person. But to each his own.
If you don't like arguing then there is nothing that says you must argue.

> Again I for one will continue to support postgresql team whatever their decision may be.
That decision has already been made. Unless you can overcome the _idealogical_ reason that PostgreSQL is F/OSS in the
firstplace, then I'm not sure this is an argument worth continuing. 

Jim

>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
> [mailto:pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of James Keener
> Sent: 06 January 2016 15:04
> To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Karsten Hilbert';
> pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
>
>> My only aim is further progress of postgresql.
> Charging for it would do exactly that. Most people would simply switch to MySQL (or Maria) or stop upgrading/upgrade
toa fork. 
>
>> As per Sun Microsystem’s case charging zero dollars (for Java and
>> mysql)  means there is zero income.
> Why do you think this is a company? There _are_ companies that offer support and coding. While I'm sure everyone
wouldagree that developers should be able to eat (and more/better than Raman), the point of the "The PostgreSQL Global
DevelopmentGroup" and being "The world's most advanced open source database" is not to become Ellison. The commercial
supportand consulting offerings are there to make the money. The rest of us plebs just have to help each other out. 
>
> Had PostgreSQL started out/never became open source, we would be having a very different discussion (about a very
differentproduct, if it still existed). As it stands, fundamentally shifting the goals, objectives, MO of a libre and
beerfree software project to something other than that is going to be met with a lot of resistance because it shifts
howwe as users interact with something we've interacted with in a certain way and with certain expectations for years. 
>
>> Emails are not the best medium for consulting about complex issues.
> Emails are actually a decent medium because they allow one to express themselves in a well thought out and clear way.
Itjust has to be used correctly (and I'm not insinuating I'm great at that). 
>
> I'm not sure who Farjad is; is this a serious proposal or "just something someone said"? I feel religious about
PostgreSQLas it really has changed how I view databases in general (and you know what they say about converts). Not
thatI matter, but I would feel a huge blow if I could no longer tell people to use it. 
>
> Jim
>
>
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