Обсуждение: License question

I did a quick search on the mailing list and didn’t really find my
answer, so I am posting it to this list…

I’d like to apologize for my lack in understanding all this license
stuff. I am not an open source developer, I am a commercial developer,
so this is the first time I have even looked to use open source software
at all.

We are a small company that develops specialized applications. We use a
development language that has its own shared file database (like
access). This is less than ideal in a lot of cases. We don’t really
charge for our software, we charge for the time we take to make the
software. Essentially, we have no product, we have a service. However,
we are a commercial for-profit entity. We have found our built in
database to be problematic and prone to index corruption. Plus the fact
when people ask us what we use, we get funny looks, and sometimes told
we can’t install that on their server because they have never heard of
it before.

We started to look at alternatives. One of those was the MSDE from
Microsoft. I started a conversion of a large customer only to find out
that we hit the 2 gig limit before it even got installed (converted
their current data). We started to look at prices of the full version of
SQL Server and the pricing is going to put it out of reach for some of
our customers. The larger ones will have no problem paying for it, but
most of our customers are small businesses that just can’t afford it. I
realize it’s a small price to pay, but you also have to realize that
with our development language, we have to charge our end users a per
user runtime fee (that gets paid to the company that makes our
development language) and a per user fee to connect to any database
other than the default (again, to the company that made our development
language). By the time we are done, a 25 user system has a per user cost
of over $5,000 for the database and the runtime fees. Then when you tack
on our fees for software modifications, this just put it out of reach
for the smaller customers. Also keep in mind; we are in process of
dumping our current language for VB.Net, simply because of these stupid
fees that our customers have to pay to the company that wrote our
development environment.

We are looking for alternatives that are reliable, fairly fast, and easy
to maintain. We immediately thought of MySQL, but the commercial
licenses have now gone to an annual subscription structure. The basic
version is fairly cheap, and very reasonable. However, the data
connector that we have to pay for to get MySQL access will cost our end
users $3500 for a 25 user system. On the other hand, we can use an ODBC
connector for $1,000, which puts it back into the somewhat affordable
range. Once it’s moved to VB.Net, all of these fees will be eliminated,
but that is pretty far off.

This brings me here. I have heard of PostGreSQL, so it’s not new to me.
But all this licensing is. And maybe you can help get some clarification
for the MySQL licensing too.

We will not be selling the database software. We may install it for
them, though. In fact, most of the time, we will be the ones to install
it, and we charge for that time. Our customers are very aware that we
did not write it, nor are we selling it. Even if they are to purchase
SQL Server, they are the ones to purchase it directly, not us. We
purchase the connectivity kits that we use to connect to the database,
and then pass that cost on to the customer. It is purchased in their
name with their information. We do not charge extra or tack on any fees.
We do it this way so that no screw ups are made… The connectivity kit is
the one that connects to the database; we connect to the connectivity
kit through our software.

Knowing all this, what do we need to purchase, what can we do and what
can’t we do? It’s hard getting a straight answer from anyone that is why
I am here. If we can’t do it, we won’t. If we can save our customers
some money while getting them really good options and software, we would
like to do that. But on the same token, we don’t to do anything unfair
or illegal.


Thank you for your time.

Aaron

> This brings me here. I have heard of PostGreSQL, so it’s not new to me.
> But all this licensing is. And maybe you can help get some clarification
> for the MySQL licensing too.
>

You can do anything you want with PostgreSQL. You can close source it,
you can sell it, you can rename it.

You just can't sue us if something goes wrong.

No charge.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake




> We will not be selling the database software. We may install it for
> them, though. In fact, most of the time, we will be the ones to install
> it, and we charge for that time. Our customers are very aware that we
> did not write it, nor are we selling it. Even if they are to purchase
> SQL Server, they are the ones to purchase it directly, not us. We
> purchase the connectivity kits that we use to connect to the database,
> and then pass that cost on to the customer. It is purchased in their
> name with their information. We do not charge extra or tack on any fees.
> We do it this way so that no screw ups are made… The connectivity kit is
> the one that connects to the database; we connect to the connectivity
> kit through our software.
>
> Knowing all this, what do we need to purchase, what can we do and what
> can’t we do? It’s hard getting a straight answer from anyone that is why
> I am here. If we can’t do it, we won’t. If we can save our customers
> some money while getting them really good options and software, we would
> like to do that. But on the same token, we don’t to do anything unfair
> or illegal.
>
>
> Thank you for your time.
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
>        choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
>        match
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Hi,

If I'm not wrong, Postgres comes with a BSD license, which means that
it (literally) doesn't matter what you do with the sources or how you
link your applications to the Postgres libraries. Pervasive goes into
details here: http://www.pervasivepostgres.com/postgresql/mysql.asp.


Regards,


Arthur

On 10/4/05, Aaron Smith <thespirit@smithcentral.net> wrote:
> I did a quick search on the mailing list and didn't really find my
> answer, so I am posting it to this list…
>

[cut]

> Knowing all this, what do we need to purchase, what can we do and what
> can't we do? It's hard getting a straight answer from anyone that is why
> I am here. If we can't do it, we won't. If we can save our customers
> some money while getting them really good options and software, we would
> like to do that. But on the same token, we don't to do anything unfair
> or illegal.
>
>
> Thank you for your time.
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
>        choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
>        match
>

[snip]
> Knowing all this, what do we need to purchase, what can we do and what
> can't we do? It's hard getting a straight answer from anyone that is
why
> I am here. If we can't do it, we won't. If we can save our customers
> some money while getting them really good options and software, we
would
> like to do that. But on the same token, we don't to do anything unfair
> or illegal.
===================================================================
Here is the PostgreSQL license:
http://www.postgresql.org/about/licence
===================================================================
It says:
"PostgreSQL is released under the BSD license.
PostgreSQL Database Management System
(formerly known as Postgres, then as Postgres95)

Portions Copyright (c) 1996-2005, The PostgreSQL Global Development
Group

Portions Copyright (c) 1994, The Regents of the University of California

Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software and its
documentation for any purpose, without fee, and without a written
agreement is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice
and this paragraph and the following two paragraphs appear in all
copies.

IN NO EVENT SHALL THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BE LIABLE TO ANY PARTY
FOR DIRECT, INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES,
INCLUDING LOST PROFITS, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE AND ITS
DOCUMENTATION, EVEN IF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS BEEN ADVISED OF
THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SPECIFICALLY DISCLAIMS ANY WARRANTIES,
INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY
AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE SOFTWARE PROVIDED HEREUNDER IS
ON AN "AS IS" BASIS, AND THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA HAS NO OBLIGATIONS
TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE, SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS, OR
MODIFICATIONS."
===================================================================
It means you have the following requirement (my description of it):
You tell people you used it.
===================================================================
There are no fees.
You can modify the software.  You can keep your changes or contribute
them back (it is smart to contribute them back, because you get free
maintenance that way!)

Simply put, the BSD license is the most open, user and business
friendly, and flexible license in the world.

It is having your cake and eating it too.

You have stumbled upon the most feature rich, freely available
magnificent open source database on earth.

Congratulations!

<meta content=3D"text/html;charset=3Dwindows-1251"
 http-equiv=3D"Content-Type">


Joshua D. Drake wrote:
<blockquote cite=3D"mid1128453545.11809.33.camel@jd.commandprompt.com"
 type=3D"cite">

    This brings me here. I have heard of PostGreSQL, so it=
=92s not new to me.=20
But all this licensing is. And maybe you can help get some clarification=20
for the MySQL licensing too.




You can do anything you want with PostgreSQL. You can close source it,
you can sell it, you can rename it.

You just can't sue us if something goes wrong.


LOL!!!!!
<blockquote cite=3D"mid1128453545.11809.33.camel@jd.commandprompt.com"
 type=3D"cite">

No charge.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake






    We will not be selling the database software. We may ins=
tall it for=20
them, though. In fact, most of the time, we will be the ones to install=20
it, and we charge for that time. Our customers are very aware that we=20
did not write it, nor are we selling it. Even if they are to purchase=20
SQL Server, they are the ones to purchase it directly, not us. We=20
purchase the connectivity kits that we use to connect to the database,=20
and then pass that cost on to the customer. It is purchased in their=20
name with their information. We do not charge extra or tack on any fees.=20
We do it this way so that no screw ups are made=85 The connectivity kit is=
=20
the one that connects to the database; we connect to the connectivity=20
kit through our software.

Knowing all this, what do we need to purchase, what can we do and what=20
can=92t we do? It=92s hard getting a straight answer from anyone that is wh=
y=20
I am here. If we can=92t do it, we won=92t. If we can save our customers=20
some money while getting them really good options and software, we would=20
like to do that. But on the same token, we don=92t to do anything unfair=20
or illegal.


Thank you for your time.

Aaron



---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
       choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
       match

 From my understanding of the license for Postgresql, there is no
licensing fees as long as you are not selling it yourself for a profit.
There are also free platforms to build your application on.  I am myself
exploring the use of Centos with php, postgresql, apache with ssl
running as a secure stable platform for my customer.   I think you can
do this all for free. meaning just charging for the time you use to
develop and support the application.  It  is not a fat client solution
and you will have to learn the environment, but from my exploring, this
seems to be a very viable option. Again, I have to research things such
as report writing and the like.  Hope we get other opinions on this.  I
am at this juncture myself.
Aaron Smith wrote:

> I did a quick search on the mailing list and didn’t really find my
> answer, so I am posting it to this list…
>
> I’d like to apologize for my lack in understanding all this license
> stuff. I am not an open source developer, I am a commercial developer,
> so this is the first time I have even looked to use open source
> software at all.
>
> We are a small company that develops specialized applications. We use
> a development language that has its own shared file database (like
> access). This is less than ideal in a lot of cases. We don’t really
> charge for our software, we charge for the time we take to make the
> software. Essentially, we have no product, we have a service. However,
> we are a commercial for-profit entity. We have found our built in
> database to be problematic and prone to index corruption. Plus the
> fact when people ask us what we use, we get funny looks, and sometimes
> told we can’t install that on their server because they have never
> heard of it before.
>
> We started to look at alternatives. One of those was the MSDE from
> Microsoft. I started a conversion of a large customer only to find out
> that we hit the 2 gig limit before it even got installed (converted
> their current data). We started to look at prices of the full version
> of SQL Server and the pricing is going to put it out of reach for some
> of our customers. The larger ones will have no problem paying for it,
> but most of our customers are small businesses that just can’t afford
> it. I realize it’s a small price to pay, but you also have to realize
> that with our development language, we have to charge our end users a
> per user runtime fee (that gets paid to the company that makes our
> development language) and a per user fee to connect to any database
> other than the default (again, to the company that made our
> development language). By the time we are done, a 25 user system has a
> per user cost of over $5,000 for the database and the runtime fees.
> Then when you tack on our fees for software modifications, this just
> put it out of reach for the smaller customers. Also keep in mind; we
> are in process of dumping our current language for VB.Net, simply
> because of these stupid fees that our customers have to pay to the
> company that wrote our development environment.
>
> We are looking for alternatives that are reliable, fairly fast, and
> easy to maintain. We immediately thought of MySQL, but the commercial
> licenses have now gone to an annual subscription structure. The basic
> version is fairly cheap, and very reasonable. However, the data
> connector that we have to pay for to get MySQL access will cost our
> end users $3500 for a 25 user system. On the other hand, we can use an
> ODBC connector for $1,000, which puts it back into the somewhat
> affordable range. Once it’s moved to VB.Net, all of these fees will be
> eliminated, but that is pretty far off.
>
> This brings me here. I have heard of PostGreSQL, so it’s not new to
> me. But all this licensing is. And maybe you can help get some
> clarification for the MySQL licensing too.
>
> We will not be selling the database software. We may install it for
> them, though. In fact, most of the time, we will be the ones to
> install it, and we charge for that time. Our customers are very aware
> that we did not write it, nor are we selling it. Even if they are to
> purchase SQL Server, they are the ones to purchase it directly, not
> us. We purchase the connectivity kits that we use to connect to the
> database, and then pass that cost on to the customer. It is purchased
> in their name with their information. We do not charge extra or tack
> on any fees. We do it this way so that no screw ups are made… The
> connectivity kit is the one that connects to the database; we connect
> to the connectivity kit through our software.
>
> Knowing all this, what do we need to purchase, what can we do and what
> can’t we do? It’s hard getting a straight answer from anyone that is
> why I am here. If we can’t do it, we won’t. If we can save our
> customers some money while getting them really good options and
> software, we would like to do that. But on the same token, we don’t to
> do anything unfair or illegal.
>
>
> Thank you for your time.
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
>       choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
>       match

On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 09:49, Aaron Smith wrote:

SNIP

> We will not be selling the database software. We may install it for
> them, though. In fact, most of the time, we will be the ones to install
> it, and we charge for that time. Our customers are very aware that we
> did not write it, nor are we selling it. Even if they are to purchase
> SQL Server, they are the ones to purchase it directly, not us. We
> purchase the connectivity kits that we use to connect to the database,
> and then pass that cost on to the customer. It is purchased in their
> name with their information. We do not charge extra or tack on any fees.
> We do it this way so that no screw ups are made… The connectivity kit is
> the one that connects to the database; we connect to the connectivity
> kit through our software.
>
> Knowing all this, what do we need to purchase, what can we do and what
> can’t we do? It’s hard getting a straight answer from anyone that is why
> I am here. If we can’t do it, we won’t. If we can save our customers
> some money while getting them really good options and software, we would
> like to do that. But on the same token, we don’t to do anything unfair
> or illegal.

PostgreSQL is licensed under the BSD license, and, to quote Tom Lane and
a few other developers "You can do anything you want with it, just don't
sue us."

If you have a customer who would want to pay for a commercial version,
it is also available as such from several companies that provide their
own "flavor" of postgresql, usually wrapped up with extra utilities and
what not (i.e. mammoth replicator things like that).  If you have a
customer that is comfortable installing software on their own,
PostgreSQL is quite easy to install.

You might also want to look at firebird SQL server, as it's also pretty
good, and has a feature set that is mostly the same as PostgreSQL, with
some areas for each database that are better than the other.

So, if you want to bundle it with your application, you can.  Create a
CD with your app and postgresql on it, and use a silent install process
to put it on the machine, or let the user do all that if they prefer.

Hi,

>You can close source it, you can sell it, you can rename it.

Add to that: As long as you leave the copyrights notices alone...
Isn't that what the BSD license is particularly about? [but then, I
might be wrong there]


Regards,


Arthur

On 10/4/05, Richmond Dyes <rdyes@monroehosp.org> wrote:
>  From my understanding of the license for Postgresql, there is no
> licensing fees as long as you are not selling it yourself for a profit.

Completely incorrect. You can do whatever you like with PostgreSQL;
you just can't sue anyone when things go south.

aaron.glenn

Also sprach Aaron Smith (thespirit@smithcentral.net)

[License questions]

PostgreSQL is released under BSD License. This license say (informal,
IANAL) Do whatever you want with the code, but keep the author's
acknowledgements.

BSD licensed software is quite often incorporated into commercial
products, like FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD are used in Apple's Mac OS X,
OpenSSH in Cisco and Nokia products and so on.


However, PostgreSQL can't be bought, since it is no commercial product
like eg. MySQL or MS SQL Server. So get the source and do whatever you
want.

BTW: BSD license is not the only advantage of PostgreSQL, indeed it is
the world's most advanced database system and has a *lot* of technical
advantages other DBs are still dreaming of.




See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_license for a short summary of
the license. (Not that the original license only had 28 lines :-)

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des Jahres vom Gedanken an seinen Tod beherrscht werden.

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<snip>

> This brings me here. I have heard of PostGreSQL, so it's not
> new to me.
> But all this licensing is. And maybe you can help get some
> clarification for the MySQL licensing too.
>
> We will not be selling the database software. We may install
> it for them, though. In fact, most of the time, we will be
> the ones to install it, and we charge for that time. Our
> customers are very aware that we did not write it, nor are we
> selling it. Even if they are to purchase SQL Server, they are
> the ones to purchase it directly, not us. We purchase the
> connectivity kits that we use to connect to the database, and
> then pass that cost on to the customer. It is purchased in
> their name with their information. We do not charge extra or
> tack on any fees.
> We do it this way so that no screw ups are made... The
> connectivity kit is the one that connects to the database; we
> connect to the connectivity kit through our software.
>
> Knowing all this, what do we need to purchase, what can we do
> and what can't we do? It's hard getting a straight answer
> from anyone that is why I am here. If we can't do it, we
> won't. If we can save our customers some money while getting
> them really good options and software, we would like to do
> that. But on the same token, we don't to do anything unfair
> or illegal.

For the database, nothing. Even if you sell the db itself, you pay
nothing. It's as free as it gets, that's what the BSD license is. See
http://www.postgresql.org/about/licence - that's all there is to it.

You will need npgsql
(http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/npgsql/projdisplay.php) to connect
from .net, which is licensed LGPL. This means that you can link to it at
no charge, but if you make any modifications to it, you have to make
them opensource (LGPL also). But here too, there is nothing you need to
buy.

To connect with ODBC, you need the pg ODBC driver, which is also LGPL.

If you need technical expertise you don't have, you may want to sign a
support contract with a company for your systems, which will of course
cost money. but there is no licensing fee, and if you can deal with the
support issues in-house, there is no cost at all.


The difference with MySQL is that you either license it commercially
(and pay), or under GPL. GPL (unlike LGPL) requires you to license
*your* software as GPL as well.

//Magnus

Richmond Dyes wrote:

> From my understanding of the license for Postgresql, there is no
> licensing fees as long as you are not selling it yourself for a profit.

This is incorrect. Please see the other messages on this thread. The
product you are thinking of is MySQL.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/

I never imagined that I would get so many responses. Thanks for all the
great information! This really cleared it up for us. It looks like I
will take a good long look at postgresql and see how well I can make it
interface into our product. This was extremely good news for me... I had
thought we were completely sunk until we moved everything over to .Net.

Thanks again!
Aaron

> I had thought we were completely sunk until we moved everything over
> to .Net.

Insert microsoft wisecrack of your choice here : )

>

On Oct 4, 2005, at 4:38 PM, Aaron Smith wrote:

> I never imagined that I would get so many responses. Thanks for all
> the great information!

depending on the nature of your DB you may wish to investigate SQLite
as well.  it is designed to be embedded into apps, not run as a
separate server, which us better suited to some uses.

SQLite is public domain, meaning there is not even a copyright
holder, so you can literally do whatever you want with it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general-
> owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Vivek Khera
> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:55 PM
> To: Postgres General
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] License question
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2005, at 4:38 PM, Aaron Smith wrote:
>
> > I never imagined that I would get so many responses. Thanks for all
> > the great information!
>
> depending on the nature of your DB you may wish to investigate SQLite
> as well.  it is designed to be embedded into apps, not run as a
> separate server, which us better suited to some uses.
>
> SQLite is public domain, meaning there is not even a copyright
> holder, so you can literally do whatever you want with it.

SQLite is also modeled after {a subset of} the PostgreSQL grammar.  So
when you want to step up from a little baby database, you can step right
into PostgreSQL with minimal muss and fuss.

SQLite Grammar page:
http://www.sqlite.org/lang.html