Обсуждение: PostgreSQL 8.1 vs. MySQL 5.0?
Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). MySQL 5.0 new features http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html Thanks, CSN __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 18:37 -0700, CSN wrote: > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > > MySQL 5.0 new features > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html Well "IF" they are being completely honest, we don't have XA and we don't have an "instance manager" but of course who really needs one? Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > Thanks, > CSN > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster -- Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240 PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes: > On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 18:37 -0700, CSN wrote: >> Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new >> comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in >> PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just >> lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). >> >> MySQL 5.0 new features >> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html > Well "IF" they are being completely honest, we don't have XA > and we don't have an "instance manager" but of course who really needs > one? We don't have XA built into the backend, but if I've been following the jdbc list accurately, there's fairly complete XA support for the jdbc driver, which should be available in the 8.1 release. More generally, it's worth making the point that a lot of MySQL's "brand new in 5.0" features have been in Postgres for a *long* time, and are therefore likely to be both more stable and better-performing than MySQL's first cut at them. (BTW, it sure seems like MySQL 5.0 has been a heckuva long time in getting to release status. Has anyone here been following that process? Why's it been so painful?) regards, tom lane
>More generally, it's worth making the point that a lot of MySQL's "brand >new in 5.0" features have been in Postgres for a *long* time, and are >therefore likely to be both more stable and better-performing than >MySQL's first cut at them. > > Some specific things could be: Their "initial support" for triggers ;) Also technically we do have updateable views via rules. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240 PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/
Am Mittwoch, den 05.10.2005, 18:37 -0700 schrieb CSN: > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > > MySQL 5.0 new features > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html Nice detail: "Views that use UNION ALL are disallowed even though they might be theoretically updatable, because the implementation uses temporary tables to process them." not sure if silently declare part of the view as updateable is SQL standard... you can do all you want if you add the update (and also insert) rule to the view definition (which is in fact only a select rule in PG)
I'm not sure what XA (distributed transactions) is - is that something that can be achieved with Slony? CSN --- "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 18:37 -0700, CSN wrote: > > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any > new > > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG > just > > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > > > > MySQL 5.0 new features > > > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html > > Well "IF" they are being completely honest, we don't > have XA > and we don't have an "instance manager" but of > course who really needs > one? > > Sincerely, > > Joshua D. Drake > > > > > > Thanks, > > CSN > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > ---------------------------(end of > broadcast)--------------------------- > > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > -- > Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, > Inc. 1.800.492.2240 > PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom > Programming, 24x7 support > Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting > Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - > http://www.commandprompt.com/ > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
No. Distributed transactions can cooperate in two phase commit. I think someone has done some two phase commit work already. IIRC. > -----Original Message----- > From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org [mailto:pgsql-general- > owner@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of CSN > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:11 PM > To: jd@commandprompt.com > Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL 8.1 vs. MySQL 5.0? > > > I'm not sure what XA (distributed transactions) is - > is that something that can be achieved with Slony? > > CSN > > > --- "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote: > > > On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 18:37 -0700, CSN wrote: > > > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any > > new > > > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > > > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG > > just > > > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > > > > > > MySQL 5.0 new features > > > > > > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html > > > > Well "IF" they are being completely honest, we don't > > have XA > > and we don't have an "instance manager" but of > > course who really needs > > one? > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Joshua D. Drake > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > CSN > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > ---------------------------(end of > > broadcast)--------------------------- > > > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > > -- > > Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, > > Inc. 1.800.492.2240 > > PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom > > Programming, 24x7 support > > Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting > > Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - > > http://www.commandprompt.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to > choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not > match
cool_screen_name90001@yahoo.com (CSN) writes: > I'm not sure what XA (distributed transactions) is - > is that something that can be achieved with Slony? No. XA is an interface to allow having updates take place across multiple databases. That would mean that you do some updates on one DB, others on another, and finally issue a "distributed COMMIT" which commits it all at once. That's not similar to what Slony-I does... -- (format nil "~S@~S" "cbbrowne" "cbbrowne.com") http://cbbrowne.com/info/oses.html "Have you noticed that, when we were young, we were told that `everybody else is doing it' was a really stupid reason to do something, but now it's the standard reason for picking a particular software package?" -- Barry Gehm
They have collation and multiple characterset per table and etc. which actually is from 4.1 (not new in 5.0), and postgresql have only one collation per database cluster :-( Otherwise I think their features are all there, but cannot be used togather most of them (you can have foreign key, but not using fulltext ...) CSN wrote: > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > > MySQL 5.0 new features > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html > > Thanks, > CSN > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster >
> They have collation and multiple characterset per table and etc. which > actually is from 4.1 (not new in 5.0), and postgresql have only one > collation per database cluster :-( > Otherwise I think their features are all there, but cannot be used > togather most of them (you can have foreign key, but not using fulltext ...) I heard that MySQL has tons of problems with its multibyte support (for example SELECT does not return correct data). I don't know if MySQL AB has fixed the problem or not though. -- SRA OSS, Inc. Japan Tatsuo Ishii
On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 23:41, Tom Lane wrote: > "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes: > > On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 18:37 -0700, CSN wrote: > >> Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new > >> comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > >> PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just > >> lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > >> > >> MySQL 5.0 new features > >> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html > > > Well "IF" they are being completely honest, we don't have XA > > and we don't have an "instance manager" but of course who really needs > > one? > > We don't have XA built into the backend, but if I've been following the > jdbc list accurately, there's fairly complete XA support for the jdbc > driver, which should be available in the 8.1 release. > > More generally, it's worth making the point that a lot of MySQL's "brand > new in 5.0" features have been in Postgres for a *long* time, and are > therefore likely to be both more stable and better-performing than > MySQL's first cut at them. > > (BTW, it sure seems like MySQL 5.0 has been a heckuva long time in > getting to release status. Has anyone here been following that > process? Why's it been so painful?) I've been beta testing 5.0.xx releases and reporting bugs. They're pretty fast at fixing individual bugs. Not sure why it's taken so long, really. Maybe they were trying to do too much at once in one release? But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE bugs simply aren't getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, while mysql understands fk references made at a table level, it simply ignores, without error, warning, or notice, fk references made in a column. arg... Very frustrating. If they just didn't support that syntax it would be much less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and try the other syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to figure out why it wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK reference at column level. Things like that are, sadly, kinda rampant in MySQL.
On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 20:37, CSN wrote: > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). Bit type: Postgresql supports binary string already. Cursors: PostgreSQL does everything up updatable cursors (unless this got added recently) MySQL's cursors are only available in a procedure or function, and can't be scolled. Information Schema: MySQL's support of this looks fairly extensive. Instance Manager: Uniquely MySQL. It allows things like starting and stopping the database remotely. Fixed point arithmetic: PostgreSQL has had good behaviour for arbitrarily long numeric math for quite some time. Archive Storage Engine: PostgreSQL does the same thing, on the fly, with no add on engine, and no limitations like this one has. I.e. you have fill transactions, and can use more than select and insert on your text types, which are automagically toasted if over a certain size. Federated Storage Engine: Allows MySQL to access tables in other servers like they are here. No real direct equivalent in PostgreSQL, but dblink provides similar functionality. Stored Routines: PostgreSQL's user defined functions have done the same thing as stored routines for quite some time now. And in many brightly colored languages. Strict Mode and Error handling: Not an option, but always on in PostgreSQL. There are still plenty of things that "fall through the cracks" on MySQL, like my previously mentioned problem with column level constraints (specificall fk but all column level constraints are ignored, no error, no warning, no notice.) Jeez, how hard would it be to just throw a danged notice? Triggers: PostgreSQL has been there, done that, and has a large collection of TShirts. Each with a name of a different language it can use to create triggers / user defined functions. varchar data type extended to 64k. PostgreSQL has a limit of 1 Meg on varchar (if you use a limit) and can make a text type of ~ 1 gig. Views: Similar functionality, but PostgreSQL has updatable views by the DBA writing simple rules that allow it. This means that for simple updatable views, MySQL wins for ease of use, and for complex updatable views, PostgreSQL wins because you can still do them, you just get to do it yourself. XA Transactions: MySQL's are pretty primitive, and PostgreSQL's XA may not be much further ahead there. XA transactions need some form of management for partial transactions. MySQL's answer here was to just refuse to commit on any member if any other member failed to be prepared for commit. This is possibly the least useful implementation of XA there could be, as the primary reason I've seen for it is to allow an application to have n db servers, and to "kick one out" if it starts misbehaving and run on the remaining n-1 servers. Note that right now, PostgreSQL's XA has, as far as I know, no real conflict management. But I'm guessing PostgreSQL will have a better fleshed out XA interface before MySQL.
On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 10:50:47PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > >More generally, it's worth making the point that a lot of MySQL's "brand > >new in 5.0" features have been in Postgres for a *long* time, and are > >therefore likely to be both more stable and better-performing than > >MySQL's first cut at them. > > > > > Some specific things could be: Their "initial support" for triggers ;) > Also technically we > do have updateable views via rules. Actually, is that even a 'technically'? If memory serves, both Oracle and DB2 have ways to handle updates on views that are not automatically updateable. What we're missing are *automatically* updateable views. -- Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117 vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 10:10:14AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote: > But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE bugs simply aren't > getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, while mysql understands > fk references made at a table level, it simply ignores, without error, > warning, or notice, fk references made in a column. arg... Very > frustrating. If they just didn't support that syntax it would be much > less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and try the other > syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to figure out why it > wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK reference at column level. > > Things like that are, sadly, kinda rampant in MySQL. Are you aware of the MySQL Gotchas website (just google it)? Any time you see MySQL being stupid about something you should probably check there first to see if it's a "feature". -- Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117 vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
Now this is rather useful in my opinion. I will be passing it on to some
of my collegues.
Aly.
On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 10:10:14AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote:
>> But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE bugs simply aren't
>> getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, while mysql understands
>> fk references made at a table level, it simply ignores, without error,
>> warning, or notice, fk references made in a column. arg... Very
>> frustrating. If they just didn't support that syntax it would be much
>> less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and try the other
>> syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to figure out why it
>> wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK reference at column level.
>>
>> Things like that are, sadly, kinda rampant in MySQL.
>
> Are you aware of the MySQL Gotchas website (just google it)? Any time
> you see MySQL being stupid about something you should probably check
> there first to see if it's a "feature".
>
--
Aly S.P Dharshi
aly.dharshi@telus.net
"A good speech is like a good dress
that's short enough to be interesting
and long enough to cover the subject"
> Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). PostgreSQL does not run in Windows 98 There is a LOT of customers running Windows 98 . So I must switch to a Firebird, am I right ? Andrus.
On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 12:23, Jim C. Nasby wrote: > On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 10:10:14AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote: > > But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE bugs simply aren't > > getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, while mysql understands > > fk references made at a table level, it simply ignores, without error, > > warning, or notice, fk references made in a column. arg... Very > > frustrating. If they just didn't support that syntax it would be much > > less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and try the other > > syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to figure out why it > > wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK reference at column level. > > > > Things like that are, sadly, kinda rampant in MySQL. > > Are you aware of the MySQL Gotchas website (just google it)? Any time > you see MySQL being stupid about something you should probably check > there first to see if it's a "feature". Oh yeah, very aware. What's amazed me is how often I find something that's majorly wrong that isn't in that list. For instance, this particular problem isn't on the gotcha page, although lots of other constraint issues are. Sadly, after talking to the author of the innodb table handler, I get the feeling this one isn't going to change.
> > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new comparable > > features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in PostgreSQL up to the > forthcoming > > 8.1? AFAIK, PG just lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > > PostgreSQL does not run in Windows 98 > > There is a LOT of customers running Windows 98 . > > So I must switch to a Firebird, am I right ? You can run PostgreSQL on Cygwin on Win98, I think. But ifyou're running your database server on win98, you obviously don't care much about your data :) (PostgreSQL *client* tools and drivers run fine on Windows 98, btw) //Magnus
On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 21:40 +0300, Andrus wrote: > > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new > > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just > > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > > PostgreSQL does not run in Windows 98 > > There is a LOT of customers running Windows 98 . > > So I must switch to a Firebird, am I right ? Over MySQL, yes. However since not even Microsoft supports Windows 98 anymore, it is better to update them. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > Andrus. > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://archives.postgresql.org -- Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240 PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/
Andrus wrote: > > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new > > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just > > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > > PostgreSQL does not run in Windows 98 > > There is a LOT of customers running Windows 98 . > > So I must switch to a Firebird, am I right ? We run on Windoews 98 using Cygwin, I think. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Support for windows 98 was infact extended to June 2006:
http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean1
Alex
http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean1
Alex
On 10/6/05, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 21:40 +0300, Andrus wrote:
> > Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new
> > comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in
> > PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just
> > lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO).
>
> PostgreSQL does not run in Windows 98
>
> There is a LOT of customers running Windows 98 .
>
> So I must switch to a Firebird, am I right ?
Over MySQL, yes. However since not even Microsoft supports Windows 98
anymore, it is better to update them.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> Andrus.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org
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--- Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote: > > Federated Storage Engine: Allows MySQL to access > tables in other > servers like they are here. No real direct > equivalent in PostgreSQL, > but dblink provides similar functionality. Would that be possible with table partitions? Or Slony? CSN __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 14:35, CSN wrote: > --- Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote: > > > > > But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE > > bugs simply aren't > > getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, > > while mysql understands > > fk references made at a table level, it simply > > ignores, without error, > > warning, or notice, fk references made in a column. > > arg... Very > > frustrating. If they just didn't support that > > syntax it would be much > > less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and > > try the other > > syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to > > figure out why it > > wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK > > reference at column level. > > > > Things like that are, sadly, kinda rampant in MySQL. > > > > What's the difference between a fk at the table level > vs. column level? The only fk's I've used are one > column referencing another. It's just where they're defined. See this bug for an explanation: http://bugs.mysql.com/bug.php?id=13301
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 10:10:14AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote: >> But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE bugs simply aren't >> getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, while mysql understands >> fk references made at a table level, it simply ignores, without error, >> warning, or notice, fk references made in a column. arg... Very >> frustrating. If they just didn't support that syntax it would be much >> less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and try the other >> syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to figure out why it >> wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK reference at column level. >> >> Things like that are, sadly, kinda rampant in MySQL. > > Are you aware of the MySQL Gotchas website (just google it)? Any time > you see MySQL being stupid about something you should probably check > there first to see if it's a "feature". http://sql-info.de/mysql/gotchas.html Of course, one should probably also look at the PostgreSQL Gotchas page (same guy) just to be fair :-) http://sql-info.de/postgresql/postgres-gotchas.html Now whether or not those are still valid or not I have no idea... -philip
--- Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote: > On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 23:41, Tom Lane wrote: > > "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes: > > > On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 18:37 -0700, CSN wrote: > > >> Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there > any new > > >> comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in > > >> PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG > just > > >> lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). > > >> > > >> MySQL 5.0 new features > > >> > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html > > > > > Well "IF" they are being completely honest, we > don't have XA > > > and we don't have an "instance manager" but of > course who really needs > > > one? > > > > We don't have XA built into the backend, but if > I've been following the > > jdbc list accurately, there's fairly complete XA > support for the jdbc > > driver, which should be available in the 8.1 > release. > > > > More generally, it's worth making the point that a > lot of MySQL's "brand > > new in 5.0" features have been in Postgres for a > *long* time, and are > > therefore likely to be both more stable and > better-performing than > > MySQL's first cut at them. > > > > (BTW, it sure seems like MySQL 5.0 has been a > heckuva long time in > > getting to release status. Has anyone here been > following that > > process? Why's it been so painful?) > > I've been beta testing 5.0.xx releases and reporting > bugs. They're > pretty fast at fixing individual bugs. > > Not sure why it's taken so long, really. Maybe they > were trying to do > too much at once in one release? > > But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE > bugs simply aren't > getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, > while mysql understands > fk references made at a table level, it simply > ignores, without error, > warning, or notice, fk references made in a column. > arg... Very > frustrating. If they just didn't support that > syntax it would be much > less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and > try the other > syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to > figure out why it > wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK > reference at column level. > > Things like that are, sadly, kinda rampant in MySQL. > What's the difference between a fk at the table level vs. column level? The only fk's I've used are one column referencing another. CSN ______________________________________________________ Yahoo! for Good Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:35:38PM -0700, CSN wrote:
> Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote:
> > But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE bugs simply aren't
> > getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, while mysql understands
> > fk references made at a table level, it simply ignores, without error,
> > warning, or notice, fk references made in a column. arg... Very
> > frustrating. If they just didn't support that syntax it would be much
> > less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and try the other
> > syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to figure out why it
> > wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK reference at column level.
>
> What's the difference between a fk at the table level
> vs. column level? The only fk's I've used are one
> column referencing another.
He means the way the foreign key constraint is defined. In MySQL,
defining the constraint as part of column definition has no effect:
CREATE TABLE bar (
fooid integer NOT NULL REFERENCES foo (id)
) TYPE innodb;
The database accepts the above without warning but won't enforce
the foreign key constraint. One must write this instead:
CREATE TABLE bar (
fooid integer NOT NULL,
FOREIGN KEY (fooid) REFERENCES foo (id)
) TYPE innodb;
Also, notice the "TYPE innodb" clause of the CREATE TABLE statement.
The default table type in MySQL is MyISAM, which doesn't support
foreign key contraints at all, but which will silently allow you
to declare them. If you haven't changed the default table type,
then you must remember to specify that you want an InnoDB table,
or else your REFERENCES clauses are nothing but documentation.
--
Michael Fuhr
On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 12:40 -0700, CSN wrote: > --- Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote: > > > > Federated Storage Engine: Allows MySQL to access > > tables in other > > servers like they are here. No real direct > > equivalent in PostgreSQL, > > but dblink provides similar functionality. > > Would that be possible with table partitions? Or > Slony? No. This is a actual cross database kind of thing. That is why you need dblink. Table partitioning is same type of data multiple tables. Slony like Mammoth Replicator doesn't give you this either as we just mirror (replicate) the data. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > CSN > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 > http://mail.yahoo.com > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend -- Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240 PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/
On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 10:30:26AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote:
>
> Information Schema: MySQL's support of this looks fairly extensive.
But PostgreSQL's is pretty good, too, last I looked.
> Instance Manager: Uniquely MySQL. It allows things like starting and
> stopping the database remotely.
What does "Instance Manager" buy you that ssh doesn't? (For bonus
points, what does ssh get you that Instance Manager doesn't? Hint: I
have a Symbian UIQ phone. Google for "PuTTY".)
> XA Transactions: MySQL's are pretty primitive, and PostgreSQL's XA may
> not be much further ahead there. XA transactions need some form of
> management for partial transactions. MySQL's answer here was to just
> refuse to commit on any member if any other member failed to be prepared
> for commit. This is possibly the least useful implementation of XA
> there could be, as the primary reason I've seen for it is to allow an
> application to have n db servers, and to "kick one out" if it starts
> misbehaving and run on the remaining n-1 servers. Note that right now,
> PostgreSQL's XA has, as far as I know, no real conflict management. But
> I'm guessing PostgreSQL will have a better fleshed out XA interface
> before MySQL.
Well, to be fair, one of the Open Group's XA targets is actual
distributed data sets, and not just reliability through redundancy.
So MySQL's implementation appears to be enough to support the former
in some ways. What seems more troublesome to me is that if a machine
fails after the PREPARE step succeds, and then the client
disconnects, the transaction is automatically rolled back and can't
be recovered. I haven't figured out yet whether this is merely
dodgy, or an outright violation of the spec.
A
--
Andrew Sullivan | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
It is above all style through which power defers to reason.
--J. Robert Oppenheimer
On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:40:49PM -0700, CSN wrote: > > --- Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote: > > > > Federated Storage Engine: Allows MySQL to access > > tables in other > > servers like they are here. No real direct > > equivalent in PostgreSQL, > > but dblink provides similar functionality. > > Would that be possible with table partitions? Or > Slony? Slony would give you a loose approximation. Table partitioning is unrelated. Better yet, I don't know of any reason why you can't define a view using dblink that would duplicate the features of a federated system. Of course it would be easier if it was in the back-end... -- Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117 vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 01:46:29PM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote: > On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 12:23, Jim C. Nasby wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 10:10:14AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote: > > > But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE bugs simply aren't > > > getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, while mysql understands > > > fk references made at a table level, it simply ignores, without error, > > > warning, or notice, fk references made in a column. arg... Very > > > frustrating. If they just didn't support that syntax it would be much > > > less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and try the other > > > syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to figure out why it > > > wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK reference at column level. > > > > > > Things like that are, sadly, kinda rampant in MySQL. > > > > Are you aware of the MySQL Gotchas website (just google it)? Any time > > you see MySQL being stupid about something you should probably check > > there first to see if it's a "feature". > > Oh yeah, very aware. What's amazed me is how often I find something > that's majorly wrong that isn't in that list. For instance, this > particular problem isn't on the gotcha page, although lots of other > constraint issues are. Sadly, after talking to the author of the innodb > table handler, I get the feeling this one isn't going to change. Please submit any missing items to the author. If he refuses them send them to me and I'll start an addendum. -- Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117 vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
Hi everyone,
I've just got back from LinuxWorld in London and seeing this thread thought
I would share my experience of the MySQL stand - if you are of a delicate
dispostion, please look away now. I basically asked them straight up why I
should use MySQL instead of PostgreSQL and was quite surprised by the
result, mainly since it was not done on features but more on FUD. The basic
message was this:
- MySQL is the most popular open source database, with over 6m
"enterprise"
installs, with a large company supporting it. PostgreSQL is run by a
very
small community of developers.
- MySQL can be clustered (This was later retracted when I mentioned
I
needed something that would work on large tables, as apparently
their
clustering only works in RAM and so will fail on large queries and
queries
that use a lot of joins).
- All the companies that have tried to operate by selling PostgreSQL
support
services have gone bankrupt, except for EnterpriseDB.
- PostgreSQL doesn't have row level locking.
And this last comment really took the biscuit - I really hope that the none
of the core team read this and decide to throw in the towel:
"MySQL has the biggest collection of database experts... Open source
people
don't know how to write databases"
So all in all, to say I was upset by some of these comments was an
understatement. To all the people I spoke to on the PostgreSQL stand, I hope
I did it in a way that made them feel empowered to go and try the PostgreSQL
for their own applications by mentioning its benefits, and not by spreading
FUD about its competition.
Mark.
------------------------
WebBased Ltd
South West Technology Centre
Tamar Science Park
Plymouth
PL6 8BT
T: +44 (0)1752 791021
F: +44 (0)1752 791023
W: http://www.webbased.co.uk
I had a similar experience speaking to the MySQL folks at (the last) COMDEX. After trying to get them to explain how their licenses work, I was even more confused (and two reps even gave conflicting info). CSN > Hi everyone, > > I've just got back from LinuxWorld in London and seeing this thread thought > I would share my experience of the MySQL stand - if you are of a delicate > dispostion, please look away now. I basically asked them straight up why I > should use MySQL instead of PostgreSQL and was quite surprised by the > result, mainly since it was not done on features but more on FUD. The basic > message was this: > > - MySQL is the most popular open source database, with over 6m > "enterprise" > installs, with a large company supporting it. PostgreSQL is run by a > very > small community of developers. > > - MySQL can be clustered (This was later retracted when I mentioned > I > needed something that would work on large tables, as apparently > their > clustering only works in RAM and so will fail on large queries and > queries > that use a lot of joins). > > - All the companies that have tried to operate by selling PostgreSQL > support > services have gone bankrupt, except for EnterpriseDB. > > - PostgreSQL doesn't have row level locking. > > And this last comment really took the biscuit - I really hope that the none > of the core team read this and decide to throw in the towel: > > "MySQL has the biggest collection of database experts... Open source > people > don't know how to write databases" > > So all in all, to say I was upset by some of these comments was an > understatement. To all the people I spoke to on the PostgreSQL stand, I hope > I did it in a way that made them feel empowered to go and try the PostgreSQL > for their own applications by mentioning its benefits, and not by spreading > FUD about its competition. > > > Mark. > > ------------------------ > WebBased Ltd > South West Technology Centre > Tamar Science Park > Plymouth > PL6 8BT __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 11:42:57PM +0100, Mark Cave-Ayland wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I've just got back from LinuxWorld in London and seeing this thread > thought I would share my experience of the MySQL stand - if you are > of a delicate dispostion, please look away now. I basically asked > them straight up why I should use MySQL instead of PostgreSQL and > was quite surprised by the result, mainly since it was not done on > features but more on FUD. The basic message was this: [FUD elided] Did you happen to get names and quotes for any of these? As in, "On October 1, 2005, at LinuxWorld London, Foo McBar said, ' ... '" One way to keep the FUD to a minimum is to hold the FUDster personally responsible for it. Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote!
> - All the companies that have tried to operate by selling PostgreSQL >support > services have gone bankrupt, except for EnterpriseDB. > > Oh the irony.... Command Prompt, Inc... Doing PostgreSQL since 1997. Profitable since 1997. No debt since 1997. Oh... and of course, no outside Vulture Capitalists either. Not to mention Pervasive although new to PostgreSQL has been around a LONG time. Stupid is as stupid does I guess. Joshua D. Drake -- Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240 PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/
"Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com> writes:
>> - All the companies that have tried to operate by selling PostgreSQL
>> support services have gone bankrupt, except for EnterpriseDB.
> Oh the irony....
Actually, AFAIR the *only* such company that's gone under was Great
Bridge; and in their case it wasn't that there wasn't a viable business
case, it was that the board of directors got cold feet during the 2001
dot-com bust, and refused to continue putting money into it according
to the original business plan. Other longtime supporters such as SRA
and PostgreSQL Inc are still around; and while Red Hat is not being as
vocal about it as they once were, they are still paying me to work on
Postgres.
So, yeah, the above claim is just FUD. It'd be interesting to ask some
hard questions about exactly how solid MySQL AB's finances are ... and
how many other support options users will have if they go under.
regards, tom lane
>So, yeah, the above claim is just FUD. It'd be interesting to ask some >hard questions about exactly how solid MySQL AB's finances are ... and >how many other support options users will have if they go under. > > Well I can say that Command Prompt will support their migration to PostgreSQL fully :) > regards, tom lane > > -- Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240 PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/
On 10/7/05, Jim C. Nasby <jnasby@pervasive.com> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 01:46:29PM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote: > > On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 12:23, Jim C. Nasby wrote: (...) > > > Are you aware of the MySQL Gotchas website (just google it)? Any time > > > you see MySQL being stupid about something you should probably check > > > there first to see if it's a "feature". > > > > Oh yeah, very aware. What's amazed me is how often I find something > > that's majorly wrong that isn't in that list. For instance, this > > particular problem isn't on the gotcha page, although lots of other > > constraint issues are. Sadly, after talking to the author of the innodb > > table handler, I get the feeling this one isn't going to change. > > Please submit any missing items to the author. If he refuses them send > them to me and I'll start an addendum. The author writes: all additions, corrections etc. most welcome. I haven't had a chance to update the site much recently, but I'm slowly going through the list to update it for MySQL 5. Ian Barwick
Scott Marlowe wrote: > > It's just where they're defined. See this bug for an explanation: And a table-level foreign-key can involve more than one column of course. -- Richard Huxton Archonet Ltd
> PostgreSQL does not run in Windows 98 > You can run PostgreSQL on Cygwin on Win98, I think. > But ifyou're running your database server on win98, you obviously don't care much about your data :) My goal is to allow my application demo, trial and development versions to run in every Windows. If customer is not able to run even demo, he will not add data to take care of. So running in Windows 98 is more important than taking a much care about data in this case. So I must add both native and cygwin versions and cygwin intallation to my application setup and maintain cygwin and postgres-cygwin versions. A huge meaningless work. Do you think that this is more reasonable than using Firebird ? Apache runs well in Windows 98. Why this is so difficult in native Windows Postgres? > (PostgreSQL *client* tools and drivers run fine on Windows 98, btw) 1.pgAdmin refuses to run in Windows 98, displays that it is compiled with unicode support. Where to find binary version of pgAdmin for Windows 98 ? 2. I use unicode encoding in databases. Are you sure that pgAdmin allows to display accented charaters in Win 98 ? Andrus.
1.pgAdmin refuses to run in Windows 98, displays that it is compiled with >unicode support. >Where to find binary version of pgAdmin for Windows 98 ? > > > You could try PG Lightning Admin, it should work in windows 98. I don't have access to a win98 box to really test, but it *should* work. -- Tony Caduto http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql 8.x
"Andrus" <eetasoft@online.ee> writes: > Apache runs well in Windows 98. Why this is so difficult in native Windows > Postgres? I *think* it's because we use certain features of NTFS, which Win98 will never support. -Doug
"Douglas McNaught" <doug@mcnaught.org> wrote in message news:m2br21zd2l.fsf@Douglas-McNaughts-Powerbook.local... > "Andrus" <eetasoft@online.ee> writes: > >> Apache runs well in Windows 98. Why this is so difficult in native >> Windows >> Postgres? > > I *think* it's because we use certain features of NTFS, which Win98 > will never support. Postgres runs also in FAT32 file system , so this cannot be problem. Problem may be service support. Apache runs in Windows 98 as usual application, not as service. So this can be done in Postgres also. Andrus.
"Tony Caduto" <tony_caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com> wrote in message news:434672E3.3030909@amsoftwaredesign.com... > 1.pgAdmin refuses to run in Windows 98, displays that it is compiled with > >>unicode support. >>Where to find binary version of pgAdmin for Windows 98 ? >> >> > You could try PG Lightning Admin, it should work in windows 98. > I don't have access to a win98 box to really test, but it *should* work. My policy is to use open source or free software. So I can't use it, sorry for that. I tried EMS PostgreSQL Manager 3 Lite but it displays unicode incorrectly even in XP. Another open source project, EMULE, has excellent unicode support in Windows 98. It requires to load unicode support package from Microsoft for Windows 98. Why this cannot be impemented in pgAdmin ? Andrus.
On Thursday 06 October 2005 17:31, Michael Fuhr wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:35:38PM -0700, CSN wrote:
> > Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote:
> > > But what really bugs me is that some things that ARE bugs simply aren't
> > > getting fixed and probably won't. Specifically, while mysql
> > > understands fk references made at a table level, it simply ignores,
> > > without error, warning, or notice, fk references made in a column.
> > > arg... Very frustrating. If they just didn't support that syntax it
> > > would be much less bothersome, since I'd try it, get an error, and try
> > > the other syntax. Instead, I spent an afternoon trying to figure out
> > > why it wasn't doing ANYTHING when I declared an FK reference at column
> > > level.
> >
> > What's the difference between a fk at the table level
> > vs. column level? The only fk's I've used are one
> > column referencing another.
>
> He means the way the foreign key constraint is defined. In MySQL,
> defining the constraint as part of column definition has no effect:
>
> CREATE TABLE bar (
> fooid integer NOT NULL REFERENCES foo (id)
> ) TYPE innodb;
>
> The database accepts the above without warning but won't enforce
> the foreign key constraint. One must write this instead:
>
> CREATE TABLE bar (
> fooid integer NOT NULL,
> FOREIGN KEY (fooid) REFERENCES foo (id)
> ) TYPE innodb;
>
> Also, notice the "TYPE innodb" clause of the CREATE TABLE statement.
> The default table type in MySQL is MyISAM, which doesn't support
> foreign key contraints at all, but which will silently allow you
> to declare them. If you haven't changed the default table type,
> then you must remember to specify that you want an InnoDB table,
> or else your REFERENCES clauses are nothing but documentation.
I'm working on porting mediawiki to postgresql and was really puzzled by the
following:
CREATE TABLE trackbacks (
tb_id INTEGER AUTO_INCREMENT PRIMARY KEY,
tb_page INTEGER REFERENCES page(page_id) ON DELETE CASCADE,
tb_title VARCHAR(255) NOT NULL,
tb_url VARCHAR(255) NOT NULL,
tb_ex TEXT,
tb_name VARCHAR(255),
INDEX (tb_page)
);
I couldn't figure out why they weren't specifying type = innodb for the table,
but then figured they must have declared it some place else or something...
but now I see that even that wouldn't work. Makes you wonder if my$ql users
realize this behavior or not....I would have to guess not because otherwise
why would you use this type of syntax at all?
(And people claim my$ql is eaiser to use? I still don't get that one)
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Friday 07 October 2005 04:22, Andrus wrote:
> > PostgreSQL does not run in Windows 98
> > You can run PostgreSQL on Cygwin on Win98, I think.
> > But ifyou're running your database server on win98, you obviously don't
> care much about your data :)
>
> My goal is to allow my application demo, trial and development versions to
> run in every Windows.
> If customer is not able to run even demo, he will not add data to take care
> of. So running in Windows 98 is more important than taking a much care
> about data in this case.
> So I must add both native and cygwin versions and cygwin intallation to my
> application setup and maintain cygwin and postgres-cygwin versions. A huge
> meaningless work.
> Do you think that this is more reasonable than using Firebird ?
>
Just depends on how well your application code will work with firebird, but
I'd certainly cut you some slack that it's a good reason to look around.
Since this sounds more like a single use application database you might want
to look at sqlite. It's install requires zero configuration and it's public
domain software so you don't have any licensing issues and afaik it runs on
win98 with no problems.
> Apache runs well in Windows 98. Why this is so difficult in native Windows
> Postgres?
>
You have to realize that the complexity of a RDBMS is worlds above that of a
simple webserver right? More to the point, PostgreSQL makes use of some
elements of NTFS which is not supported by win98. To be honest, I believe
you could hack things to get around this, but it's probably not worth the
effort / possible stability issues.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Thursday 06 October 2005 18:18, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 12:40:49PM -0700, CSN wrote:
> > --- Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote:
> > > Federated Storage Engine: Allows MySQL to access
> > > tables in other
> > > servers like they are here. No real direct
> > > equivalent in PostgreSQL,
> > > but dblink provides similar functionality.
> >
> > Would that be possible with table partitions? Or
> > Slony?
>
> Slony would give you a loose approximation. Table partitioning is
> unrelated. Better yet, I don't know of any reason why you can't define a
> view using dblink that would duplicate the features of a federated
> system. Of course it would be easier if it was in the back-end...
You can, but if the view runs against a large table you're screwed since pg
can't optimize complex queries into the inital query to set up the view.
Not sure if my$ql is any smarter about this, but that's the first thing to
look for if you were to investigate how well it worked.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 10:45:06AM -0400, Robert Treat wrote: > On Thursday 06 October 2005 17:31, Michael Fuhr wrote: > > > > Also, notice the "TYPE innodb" clause of the CREATE TABLE > > statement. The default table type in MySQL is MyISAM, which > > doesn't support foreign key contraints at all, but which will > > silently allow you to declare them. If you haven't changed the > > default table type, then you must remember to specify that you > > want an InnoDB table, or else your REFERENCES clauses are nothing > > but documentation. > > I'm working on porting mediawiki to postgresql and was really > puzzled by the following: > > CREATE TABLE trackbacks ( > tb_id INTEGER AUTO_INCREMENT PRIMARY KEY, > tb_page INTEGER REFERENCES page(page_id) ON DELETE CASCADE, > tb_title VARCHAR(255) NOT NULL, > tb_url VARCHAR(255) NOT NULL, > tb_ex TEXT, > tb_name VARCHAR(255), > INDEX (tb_page) > ); > > I couldn't figure out why they weren't specifying type = innodb for > the table, but then figured they must have declared it some place > else or something... but now I see that even that wouldn't work. > Makes you wonder if my$ql users realize this behavior or not.... As a rule, they don't expect the database to handle any data integrity. This is a quite reasonable (lack of) expectation from that product. The trouble starts to happen when they run across DBMSs that *can* do this. > I would have to guess not because otherwise why would you use this > type of syntax at all? Right in one. > (And people claim my$ql is eaiser to use? I still don't get that > one) I was confused, too. Then it dawned on me. When people say, "MySQL is easier to use," what they really mean is, "I started from nothing. I worked hard getting used to these quirks, and I'll be *damned* if I'll consider all that painful effort wasted and start over." It reminds me a lot of the kind of mental gymnastics that cause people not to call the law when they realize they've been taken in by a con artist. In both cases, the emotional investment in not being wrong on an important matter is too big. Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote!
"Robert Treat" <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in message news:200510071059.16093.xzilla@users.sourceforge.net... > On Friday 07 October 2005 04:22, Andrus wrote: >> > PostgreSQL does not run in Windows 98 >> > You can run PostgreSQL on Cygwin on Win98, I think. >> > But ifyou're running your database server on win98, you obviously don't >> care much about your data :) >> >> My goal is to allow my application demo, trial and development versions >> to >> run in every Windows. >> If customer is not able to run even demo, he will not add data to take >> care >> of. So running in Windows 98 is more important than taking a much care >> about data in this case. >> So I must add both native and cygwin versions and cygwin intallation to >> my >> application setup and maintain cygwin and postgres-cygwin versions. A >> huge >> meaningless work. >> Do you think that this is more reasonable than using Firebird ? >> > > Just depends on how well your application code will work with firebird, > but > I'd certainly cut you some slack that it's a good reason to look around. > Since this sounds more like a single use application database you might > want > to look at sqlite. It's install requires zero configuration and it's > public > domain software so you don't have any licensing issues and afaik it runs > on > win98 with no problems. I must support demo versions for 1 to 100 users in all Windowses using free software. So there are the following options : 1. Use Firebird 2. Use Postgres + cygwin all cases, even in XP 3. Use Postgres native for XP, Postgres+cygwin in Win 98 4. Use Postgres native for XP, Sqlite in in Win 98 (4) is the most expensive (requires supporting 2 different dbmses) No ida, which is best from the remaining three. Andrus.
Andrus wrote: > > I must support demo versions for 1 to 100 users in all Windowses using free > software. > > So there are the following options : > > 1. Use Firebird > 2. Use Postgres + cygwin all cases, even in XP > 3. Use Postgres native for XP, Postgres+cygwin in Win 98 > 4. Use Postgres native for XP, Sqlite in in Win 98 > > (4) is the most expensive (requires supporting 2 different dbmses) > > No ida, which is best from the remaining three. I'd personally just go with Firebird/SQLite, and I say that as a committed PostgreSQL user who knows next to nothing about Firebird. You'll have enough problems with various library versions on different versions of Windows without any other differences. Actually I'd probably just use a MS-Access runtime engine if I still had a licence here somewhere. Presumably your database requirements aren't too demanding, or you wouldn't be considering running on Win98 in the first place. -- Richard Huxton Archonet Ltd
On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 07:00:27PM +0300, Andrus wrote: > "Robert Treat" <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> wrote in message > news:200510071059.16093.xzilla@users.sourceforge.net... > > On Friday 07 October 2005 04:22, Andrus wrote: > >> > PostgreSQL does not run in Windows 98 You can run PostgreSQL on > >> > Cygwin on Win98, I think. But ifyou're running your database > >> > server on win98, you obviously don't > >> care much about your data :) > >> > >> My goal is to allow my application demo, trial and development > >> versions to run in every Windows. If customer is not able to run > >> even demo, he will not add data to take care of. So running in > >> Windows 98 is more important than taking a much care about data > >> in this case. So I must add both native and cygwin versions and > >> cygwin intallation to my application setup and maintain cygwin > >> and postgres-cygwin versions. A huge meaningless work. Do you > >> think that this is more reasonable than using Firebird ? > >> > > > > Just depends on how well your application code will work with > > firebird, but I'd certainly cut you some slack that it's a good > > reason to look around. Since this sounds more like a single use > > application database you might want to look at sqlite. It's > > install requires zero configuration and it's public domain > > software so you don't have any licensing issues and afaik it runs > > on win98 with no problems. > > I must support demo versions for 1 to 100 users in all Windowses > using free software. > > So there are the following options : > > 1. Use Firebird > 2. Use Postgres + cygwin all cases, even in XP > 3. Use Postgres native for XP, Postgres+cygwin in Win 98 > 4. Use Postgres native for XP, Sqlite in in Win 98 > > (4) is the most expensive (requires supporting 2 different dbmses) > > No ida, which is best from the remaining three. > > Andrus. I don't know enough about Firebird to have any opinions about it. I think you're right to see about choosing just one DBMS for your product. If you plan to de-support Win 98 soon, you might want to ship PG+Cygwin with it and accept that there will be extra maintenance costs. You could also use SQLite for everything until you port your product to PostgreSQL and only offer it on platforms that allow you to run PostgreSQL natively. Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote!
Am Freitag, den 07.10.2005, 19:00 +0300 schrieb Andrus: ... > I must support demo versions for 1 to 100 users in all Windowses using free > software. > > So there are the following options : > > 1. Use Firebird > 2. Use Postgres + cygwin all cases, even in XP > 3. Use Postgres native for XP, Postgres+cygwin in Win 98 > 4. Use Postgres native for XP, Sqlite in in Win 98 > > (4) is the most expensive (requires supporting 2 different dbmses) > > No ida, which is best from the remaining three. You could also just make a live CD to boot the PCs using some linux. Postgres isnt really a desktop database so you might also consider building one special CD with the database and 1-99 "client" CDs - where you even have the choice to put the win98/xp/whatever native applications if its desireable. If you present it to customers, you can also put the database on your notebook and just bring the clients with you.
On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 23:00 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: > So, yeah, the above claim is just FUD. It'd be interesting to ask some > hard questions about exactly how solid MySQL AB's finances are ... and > how many other support options users will have if they go under. A possibly more likely and scary option for their users is that MySQL would just get bought out. I'm sure support wouldn't cost much per CPU per server per year, at least at first... IBM have previously bought Informix (who bought Illustra, RedBrick, Cloudscape) and Oracle have previously bought DEC RDB, so both have track record of successful competitor take-overs. None of those take- overs has led to a product actually surviving. Oracle have spent time running down Siebel, only to completely U-turn and buy them. Of course, Sybase and CA might get in there first, both of whom also have successful take-overs of RDBMS companies under their belts. Oracle's licence sales just flat-lined in their last quarter, share price down 4%. Their strategy is clearly one of enterprise application dominance now. But no, Mark, I'm not worried by the FUD. It just means there's nothing real for them to throw at PostgreSQL. Best Regards, Simon Riggs
In this thread, no one has mentioned their dual license, which I think of as more duplicitous than dual. Neither free as in freedom nor free as in beer, really. pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org wrote on 10/07/2005 12:45:39 PM: > On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 23:00 -0400, Tom Lane wrote: > > > So, yeah, the above claim is just FUD. It'd be interesting to ask some > > hard questions about exactly how solid MySQL AB's finances are ... and > > how many other support options users will have if they go under. > > A possibly more likely and scary option for their users is that MySQL > would just get bought out. I'm sure support wouldn't cost much per CPU > per server per year, at least at first... > > IBM have previously bought Informix (who bought Illustra, RedBrick, > Cloudscape) and Oracle have previously bought DEC RDB, so both have > track record of successful competitor take-overs. None of those take- > overs has led to a product actually surviving. Oracle have spent time > running down Siebel, only to completely U-turn and buy them. Of course, > Sybase and CA might get in there first, both of whom also have > successful take-overs of RDBMS companies under their belts. > > Oracle's licence sales just flat-lined in their last quarter, share > price down 4%. Their strategy is clearly one of enterprise application > dominance now. > > But no, Mark, I'm not worried by the FUD. It just means there's nothing > real for them to throw at PostgreSQL. > > Best Regards, Simon Riggs > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
>IBM have previously bought Informix (who bought Illustra, RedBrick, >Cloudscape) .... None of those take- >overs has led to a product actually surviving. > > Thats not exactly true - Cloudscape was just given to Apache, and is now opensourced under the name "Derby" http://db.apache.org/derby/ Suddenly, Hypersonic SQL http://www.hsqldb.org/ (which also works wonderfully for small databases - nobody would claim that these can scale like PostgreSQL) has a bunch of competition. Dan -- **************************** Daniel Armbrust Biomedical Informatics Mayo Clinic Rochester daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu http://informatics.mayo.edu/
> But no, Mark, I'm not worried by the FUD. It just means there's nothing > real for them to throw at PostgreSQL. This just appeared on slashdot... MySQL To Be Ikea Of The Database Market http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/07/1224213&from=rss From the linked article... http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=9231B8BD-3788-4DB2-B85F-707E75857B58 While new entrants into the open source database market, such as EnterpriseDB and Pervasive Software, have made no secret of their intentions to chase Oracle's market share, Mr Mickos said MySQL is happy to leave them to it. "We are thankful that they are there to define the market, there is no product if you're the only vendor," he said. "Pervasive and EnterpriseDB are going up against Oracle. We don't want to be in that space, we don't want to take the heat from Oracle. If you're working in a zoo you don't want to be the one who has to brush the teeth of the lion."
Simon Riggs wrote: > IBM have previously bought Informix (who bought Illustra, RedBrick, > Cloudscape) and Oracle have previously bought DEC RDB, so both have > track record of successful competitor take-overs. None of those take- > overs has led to a product actually surviving. Informix to some degree still exists (as a product, not as a company). true, it hasn't actually been enhanced to any significant degree since the IBM acquisition, but here at the day job we have rather a large informix installation which is certainly supported. so it's hard to actually buy informix these days, but ibm hasn't entirely abandoned the legacy customer base. richard (i'd rather be doing postgresql, but right this minute informix work pays the bills)
On 10/7/05, Philip Hallstrom <postgresql@philip.pjkh.com> wrote: > > But no, Mark, I'm not worried by the FUD. It just means there's nothing > > real for them to throw at PostgreSQL. > > This just appeared on slashdot... > > MySQL To Be Ikea Of The Database Market > http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/07/1224213&from=rss > > From the linked article... > > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=9231B8BD-3788-4DB2-B85F-707E75857B58 > > While new entrants into the open source database market, such as > EnterpriseDB and Pervasive Software, have made no secret of their > intentions to chase Oracle's market share, Mr Mickos said MySQL is happy > to leave them to it. > > "We are thankful that they are there to define the market, there is no > product if you're the only vendor," he said. "Pervasive and EnterpriseDB > are going up against Oracle. We don't want to be in that space, we don't > want to take the heat from Oracle. If you're working in a zoo you don't > want to be the one who has to brush the teeth of the lion." And this just in (via another post on this list): http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-07-2005/0004163873&EDATE= http://www.oracle.com/innodb/index.html Oracle acquires Innobase, which is the company behind the InnoDB table bit of MySQL, i.e. the engine with the foreign keys, transactions and all that. Is there a shortage of lion toothpaste in Sweden or something? Ian Barwick
On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 13:32 -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote: > >IBM have previously bought Informix (who bought Illustra, RedBrick, > >Cloudscape) .... None of those take- > >overs has led to a product actually surviving. > > > Thats not exactly true - Cloudscape was just given to Apache, and is now > opensourced under the name "Derby" > http://db.apache.org/derby/ Both the things we have said are true. IBM bought Informix, who had bought Cloudscape. *Then* they gave it away to Apache, since it is probably at about 4 years behind PostgreSQL at current development rates on PostgreSQL. Best Regards, Simon Riggs
On Thu, Oct 06, 2005 at 11:42:57PM +0100, Mark Cave-Ayland wrote: > - All the companies that have tried to operate by selling PostgreSQL > support > services have gone bankrupt, except for EnterpriseDB. Damn, guess I need to update my resume... -- Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117 vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
On 10/6/2005 4:37 AM, Tzvetan Tzankov wrote: > They have collation and multiple characterset per table and etc. which > actually is from 4.1 (not new in 5.0), and postgresql have only one > collation per database cluster :-( > Otherwise I think their features are all there, but cannot be used > togather most of them (you can have foreign key, but not using fulltext ...) AFAIK MySQL's fulltext indexing is only supported on MyIsam tables, so if you want to use it, you lose ACID, hot backup and a couple other nice things entirely for that part of your data. Many MySQL users still believe that the pluggable storage engine design is an advantage ... I think one storage engine that supports the full feature set is better. Jan > > CSN wrote: >> Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new >> comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in >> PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just >> lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). >> >> MySQL 5.0 new features >> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/mysql-5-0-nutshell.html >> >> Thanks, >> CSN >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >> http://mail.yahoo.com >> >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster >> > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend -- #======================================================================# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
> On 10/6/2005 4:37 AM, Tzvetan Tzankov wrote: > > > They have collation and multiple characterset per table and etc. which actually is from 4.1 (not new in 5.0), and postgresql have only one collation per database cluster :-( > > Otherwise I think their features are all there, but cannot be used togather most of them (you can have foreign key, but not using fulltext ...) > > > AFAIK MySQL's fulltext indexing is only supported on MyIsam tables, so if you want to use it, you lose ACID, hot backup and a couple other nice things entirely for that part of your data. Many MySQL users still believe that the pluggable storage engine design is an advantage ... I think one storage engine that supports the full feature set is better. > > Jan I agree - MySQL really has a confusing array of different database engines: # MyISAM # MERGE # ISAM # HEAP # InnoDB # BDB or BerkeleyDB Tables # Example # Archive # Federated # CSV # Blackhole # NDB Cluster http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/storage-engines.html CSN __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
On Oct 8, 2005, at 2:04 PM, CSN wrote: >> AFAIK MySQL's fulltext indexing is only supported on > MyIsam tables, so if you want to use it, you lose > ACID, For me, the fact that to use a feature means one needs to give up ACIDity ends any debate on which DB to choose, and I'm not even a power user.
On Thu, 2005-10-06 at 17:42, Mark Cave-Ayland wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I've just got back from LinuxWorld in London and seeing this thread thought > I would share my experience of the MySQL stand - if you are of a delicate > dispostion, please look away now. I basically asked them straight up why I > should use MySQL instead of PostgreSQL and was quite surprised by the > result, mainly since it was not done on features but more on FUD. The basic > message was this: This is sad. In the past, the FUD efforts of MySQL AB were really quite shameful. I had thought we had moved past that phase, with the MySQL folks understanding that bad mouthing PostgreSQL is a losing proposition in the long run, because people don't like being lied to, and get especially upset when they've dedicated resources to a project only to find out that the technology they paid for can't do the job, and the technology they were told couldn't do the job can. Sigh. > - MySQL is the most popular open source database, with over 6m > "enterprise" > installs, with a large company supporting it. PostgreSQL is run by a > very > small community of developers. Actually, the same could be said of Samba and Apache. I'll take one Tom Lane or Jan Wieck or (all the other postgresql hackers go here) over 1,000 MySQL hackers. I wonder what kind of result we would get if we compared something like "new lines of code per month / year" of the two projects.... > > - PostgreSQL doesn't have row level locking. Now that's rich. > And this last comment really took the biscuit - I really hope that the none > of the core team read this and decide to throw in the towel: > > "MySQL has the biggest collection of database experts... Open source > people > don't know how to write databases" The saddest part is the people who hear this and believe it.
On Mon, Oct 10, 2005 at 09:51:48AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote: > I'll take one Tom Lane or Jan Wieck or (all the other postgresql > hackers go here) over 1,000 MySQL hackers. Likewise. They probably don't hear it enough, so I hope they're aware that some of us have a great deal of respect for both their technical abilities and the professionalism with which they run the project. I hope their employers appreciate what they've got. -- Michael Fuhr
On Mon, Oct 10, 2005 at 09:51:48AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote: > Actually, the same could be said of Samba and Apache. I'll take one Tom > Lane or Jan Wieck or (all the other postgresql hackers go here) over > 1,000 MySQL hackers. > > I wonder what kind of result we would get if we compared something like > "new lines of code per month / year" of the two projects.... Well, shouldn't be too hard to figure that out if someone's so inclined. I know kloc numbers have been posted for the past several versions of PostgreSQL; someone would just need to do the same for MySQL. Of course, it gets a bit tricky, since you have to define what is actually MySQL code... ie, do you count InnoDB stuff? -- Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby@pervasive.com Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117 vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
On Mon, Oct 10, 2005 at 09:20:47AM -0600, Michael Fuhr wrote:
> project. I hope their employers appreciate what they've got.
Well, I can tell you that Afilias does.
A
--
Andrew Sullivan | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
The fact that technology doesn't work is no bar to success in the marketplace.
--Philip Greenspun
Michael Fuhr wrote: > On Mon, Oct 10, 2005 at 09:51:48AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote: > >>I'll take one Tom Lane or Jan Wieck or (all the other postgresql >>hackers go here) over 1,000 MySQL hackers. > > ... I hope their employers appreciate what they've got. Is there a good way of telling their employers that _their_ customers appreciate what they are doing too? I.e. any way to let Red Hat know that they're a platform the company I'm at recommends to our customers largely because of the postgresql support we assume they're capable of thanks to Tom?
Scott Marlowe wrote: >On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 20:37, CSN wrote: > > >>Just so I know (and am armed ;) ), are there any new >>comparable features in MySQL 5.0 that aren't in >>PostgreSQL up to the forthcoming 8.1? AFAIK, PG just >>lacks updatable views (which are on the TODO). >> >> ><snip> > >Instance Manager: Uniquely MySQL. It allows things like starting and >stopping the database remotely. > > I cannot think of a reason ever to need this when we have OpenSSH.... <snip> > >Federated Storage Engine: Allows MySQL to access tables in other >servers like they are here. No real direct equivalent in PostgreSQL, >but dblink provides similar functionality. > > DBI-Link also has a wider range of functionality and can access tables on MySQL, Oracle, DB2, etc. servers. <snip> >Strict Mode and Error handling: Not an option, but always on in >PostgreSQL. There are still plenty of things that "fall through the >cracks" on MySQL, like my previously mentioned problem with column level >constraints (specificall fk but all column level constraints are >ignored, no error, no warning, no notice.) Jeez, how hard would it be >to just throw a danged notice? > > Or worse, do you want an RDBMS where an application can turn of data verification and then insert dates like Feb 31, 2005? (Strict mode can be enabled/disabled per connection/session) <snip> Best Wishes, Chris Travers Metatron Technology Consulting
Alex Turner wrote: > Support for windows 98 was infact extended to June 2006: > http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean1 > Right.... And it was extended again last year as it was supposed to extend this last June, and Last June, etc. We will see if it is not extended again.... But if you are running an production database on Windows 98 you have bigger problems than support from Microsoft.... Best Wishes, Chris Travers Metatron Technology Consulting
On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 00:32, Chris Travers wrote: > Scott Marlowe wrote: > >Strict Mode and Error handling: Not an option, but always on in > >PostgreSQL. There are still plenty of things that "fall through the > >cracks" on MySQL, like my previously mentioned problem with column level > >constraints (specificall fk but all column level constraints are > >ignored, no error, no warning, no notice.) Jeez, how hard would it be > >to just throw a danged notice? > > > > > Or worse, do you want an RDBMS where an application can turn of data > verification and then insert dates like Feb 31, 2005? (Strict mode can > be enabled/disabled per connection/session) > <snip> Oh my dear god, you have got be kidding! No way to lock out bad data then? ugh.
Actualy to me, it seems like postgres is a perfect partner for MS Access. Throw out Jet, and use Pgsql. It's infinately better than Jet, so operating in a Win98 environment seems reasonable in this scenario.
I swear you could build a business just building MS Access apps on a Postgresql databases so that they can actualy _scale_ when a business grows.
Alex
I swear you could build a business just building MS Access apps on a Postgresql databases so that they can actualy _scale_ when a business grows.
Alex
On 10/13/05, Chris Travers <chris@travelamericas.com> wrote:
Alex Turner wrote:
> Support for windows 98 was infact extended to June 2006:
> http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean1
>
Right....
And it was extended again last year as it was supposed to extend this
last June, and Last June, etc. We will see if it is not extended again....
But if you are running an production database on Windows 98 you have
bigger problems than support from Microsoft....
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
Metatron Technology Consulting
<snip>
>
>Instance Manager: Uniquely MySQL. It allows things like starting and
>stopping the database remotely.
>
>
I cannot think of a reason ever to need this when we have OpenSSH....
<snip>
I'm just curious, but how does this work for a windows box?
>
>Federated Storage Engine: Allows MySQL to access tables in other
>servers like they are here. No real direct equivalent in PostgreSQL,
>but dblink provides similar functionality.
>
>
DBI-Link also has a wider range of functionality and can access tables
on MySQL, Oracle, DB2, etc. servers.
<snip>
If I had just one wish for postgresql it would be to support cross-database queries like Oracle. This is a HUGE pain in the ass, and DBI-Link syntax is clunky as hell.
I would switch to Oracle tomorrow if I had the budget just because of this feature. I have data across four and five databases that are related, and I need to build cross database views, and do data munging _easily_, DBI link is far from easy, and I suspect that it's performance is far from stellar, but I've not actualy benched it. For me this needs to be a core database feature. I have certain legal problems that are also an issue where I have to keep data that is related in seperate databases, and my clients _want_ me to cross join it for select purposes, but I'm legaly required to keep it in a seperate database.
Maybe it's just difference shock - Postgresql<>Oracle so I'm scared ;), but I don't like dblink very much ;)
<snip>
Alex Turner
NetEconomist
On Thu, Oct 13, 2005 at 01:00:03PM -0400, Alex Turner wrote: > <snip> > > >Instance Manager: Uniquely MySQL. It allows things like starting > > >and stopping the database remotely. > > > > > I cannot think of a reason ever to need this when we have > > OpenSSH.... <snip> > > I'm just curious, but how does this work for a windows box? You can get many varieties of SSH for windows. Probably the easiest to install is the one that comes with Cygwin. > > >Federated Storage Engine: Allows MySQL to access tables in other > > >servers like they are here. No real direct equivalent in > > >PostgreSQL, but dblink provides similar functionality. > > > > > DBI-Link also has a wider range of functionality and can access > > tables on MySQL, Oracle, DB2, etc. servers. <snip> > > > If I had just one wish for postgresql it would be to support > cross-database queries like Oracle. This is a HUGE pain in the ass, > and DBI-Link syntax is clunky as hell. I'm the author of DBI-Link, and I am *always* eager to hear suggestions for how to improve it. Concrete suggestions that come with resources like testers, test environments, test plans, and so forth take priority :) > I would switch to Oracle tomorrow if I had the budget just because > of this feature. I have data across four and five databases that > are related, and I need to build cross database views, and do data > munging _easily_, DBI link is far from easy, and I suspect that it's > performance is far from stellar, I'm working on this. The next performance improvement relies on pg 8.1 features of PL/Perl. Further improvements...well, you're right. I'll need a generic way to get predicates at run time from one place and push them to an opaque place, in my case, a set-returning function, at run time. Cheers, D -- David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/ phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778 Remember to vote!
Am Donnerstag, den 13.10.2005, 13:00 -0400 schrieb Alex Turner: ... > > > > If I had just one wish for postgresql it would be to support > cross-database queries like Oracle. This is a HUGE pain in the ass, > and DBI-Link syntax is clunky as hell. > > I would switch to Oracle tomorrow if I had the budget just because of > this feature. I have data across four and five databases that are > related, and I need to build cross database views, and do data munging > _easily_, DBI link is far from easy, and I suspect that it's > performance is far from stellar, but I've not actualy benched it. For > me this needs to be a core database feature. I have certain legal > problems that are also an issue where I have to keep data that is > related in seperate databases, and my clients _want_ me to cross join > it for select purposes, but I'm legaly required to keep it in a > seperate database. Why not put them in separate schemas and tell the customers these are separate databases? From outside it looks exactly like it. You can constraint the users to the different schemas and still join between the tables at will. See schema-searchpath and stuff for sticking users to a schema. HTH Tino
I could, but it would breach the terms of our contract. Our contract with the data providers clearly specifies seperate databases ;), so I'm kind of tied down by the legalese.
I have certainly considered just putting them in schemas, but I talked to legal and they didn't really like that idea ;).
Alex
I have certainly considered just putting them in schemas, but I talked to legal and they didn't really like that idea ;).
Alex
On 10/13/05, Tino Wildenhain <tino@wildenhain.de> wrote:
Am Donnerstag, den 13.10.2005, 13:00 -0400 schrieb Alex Turner:
...
>
>
>
> If I had just one wish for postgresql it would be to support
> cross-database queries like Oracle. This is a HUGE pain in the ass,
> and DBI-Link syntax is clunky as hell.
>
> I would switch to Oracle tomorrow if I had the budget just because of
> this feature. I have data across four and five databases that are
> related, and I need to build cross database views, and do data munging
> _easily_, DBI link is far from easy, and I suspect that it's
> performance is far from stellar, but I've not actualy benched it. For
> me this needs to be a core database feature. I have certain legal
> problems that are also an issue where I have to keep data that is
> related in seperate databases, and my clients _want_ me to cross join
> it for select purposes, but I'm legaly required to keep it in a
> seperate database.
Why not put them in separate schemas and tell the customers these
are separate databases? From outside it looks exactly like it.
You can constraint the users to the different schemas and still
join between the tables at will. See schema-searchpath and
stuff for sticking users to a schema.
HTH
Tino
If separate databases are required by contract, and oracle lets you treat multiple databases like one big one, wouldn't using oracle breach your contract then? In this case, PostgreSQL's schemas and Oracle's separate databases are functionally identical, nomenclature aside. On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 13:58, Alex Turner wrote: > I could, but it would breach the terms of our contract. Our contract > with the data providers clearly specifies seperate databases ;), so > I'm kind of tied down by the legalese. > > I have certainly considered just putting them in schemas, but I talked > to legal and they didn't really like that idea ;). > > Alex > > On 10/13/05, Tino Wildenhain <tino@wildenhain.de> wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 13.10.2005, 13:00 -0400 schrieb Alex > Turner: > ... > > > > > > > > If I had just one wish for postgresql it would be to support > > cross-database queries like Oracle. This is a HUGE pain in > the ass, > > and DBI-Link syntax is clunky as hell. > > > > I would switch to Oracle tomorrow if I had the budget just > because of > > this feature. I have data across four and five databases > that are > > related, and I need to build cross database views, and do > data munging > > _easily_, DBI link is far from easy, and I suspect that it's > > performance is far from stellar, but I've not actualy > benched it. For > > me this needs to be a core database feature. I have certain > legal > > problems that are also an issue where I have to keep data > that is > > related in seperate databases, and my clients _want_ me to > cross join > > it for select purposes, but I'm legaly required to keep it > in a > > seperate database. > > Why not put them in separate schemas and tell the customers > these > are separate databases? From outside it looks exactly like it. > You can constraint the users to the different schemas and > still > join between the tables at will. See schema-searchpath and > stuff for sticking users to a schema. > > HTH > Tino > >
Of course, but _legaly_ we would be complying with the contract ;)
Alex
Alex
On 10/13/05, Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote:
If separate databases are required by contract, and oracle lets you
treat multiple databases like one big one, wouldn't using oracle breach
your contract then? In this case, PostgreSQL's schemas and Oracle's
separate databases are functionally identical, nomenclature aside.
On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 13:58, Alex Turner wrote:
> I could, but it would breach the terms of our contract. Our contract
> with the data providers clearly specifies seperate databases ;), so
> I'm kind of tied down by the legalese.
>
> I have certainly considered just putting them in schemas, but I talked
> to legal and they didn't really like that idea ;).
>
> Alex
>
> On 10/13/05, Tino Wildenhain < tino@wildenhain.de> wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 13.10.2005, 13:00 -0400 schrieb Alex
> Turner:
> ...
> >
> >
> >
> > If I had just one wish for postgresql it would be to support
> > cross-database queries like Oracle. This is a HUGE pain in
> the ass,
> > and DBI-Link syntax is clunky as hell.
> >
> > I would switch to Oracle tomorrow if I had the budget just
> because of
> > this feature. I have data across four and five databases
> that are
> > related, and I need to build cross database views, and do
> data munging
> > _easily_, DBI link is far from easy, and I suspect that it's
> > performance is far from stellar, but I've not actualy
> benched it. For
> > me this needs to be a core database feature. I have certain
> legal
> > problems that are also an issue where I have to keep data
> that is
> > related in seperate databases, and my clients _want_ me to
> cross join
> > it for select purposes, but I'm legaly required to keep it
> in a
> > seperate database.
>
> Why not put them in separate schemas and tell the customers
> these
> are separate databases? From outside it looks exactly like it.
> You can constraint the users to the different schemas and
> still
> join between the tables at will. See schema-searchpath and
> stuff for sticking users to a schema.
>
> HTH
> Tino
>
>
I wouldn't be so sure of that. IT might be that in order to be considered to be complying with the contract you have to setup oracle in such a way as to disable any database to database access / joining. Seems to me the second you can run a query that hits both databases you might well be in breach of contract, depending on the terminology used. On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 14:44, Alex Turner wrote: > Of course, but _legaly_ we would be complying with the contract ;) > > Alex > > On 10/13/05, Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote: > If separate databases are required by contract, and oracle > lets you > treat multiple databases like one big one, wouldn't using > oracle breach > your contract then? In this case, PostgreSQL's schemas and > Oracle's > separate databases are functionally identical, nomenclature > aside. > > On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 13:58, Alex Turner wrote: > > I could, but it would breach the terms of our contract. Our > contract > > with the data providers clearly specifies seperate databases > ;), so > > I'm kind of tied down by the legalese. > > > > I have certainly considered just putting them in schemas, > but I talked > > to legal and they didn't really like that idea ;). > > > > Alex > > > > On 10/13/05, Tino Wildenhain <tino@wildenhain.de> wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 13.10.2005, 13:00 -0400 schrieb > Alex > > Turner: > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > If I had just one wish for postgresql it would be > to support > > > cross-database queries like Oracle. This is a > HUGE pain in > > the ass, > > > and DBI-Link syntax is clunky as hell. > > > > > > I would switch to Oracle tomorrow if I had the > budget just > > because of > > > this feature. I have data across four and five > databases > > that are > > > related, and I need to build cross database views, > and do > > data munging > > > _easily_, DBI link is far from easy, and I suspect > that it's > > > performance is far from stellar, but I've not > actualy > > benched it. For > > > me this needs to be a core database feature. I > have certain > > legal > > > problems that are also an issue where I have to > keep data > > that is > > > related in seperate databases, and my clients > _want_ me to > > cross join > > > it for select purposes, but I'm legaly required to > keep it > > in a > > > seperate database. > > > > Why not put them in separate schemas and tell the > customers > > these > > are separate databases? From outside it looks > exactly like it. > > You can constraint the users to the different > schemas and > > still > > join between the tables at will. See > schema-searchpath and > > stuff for sticking users to a schema. > > > > HTH > > Tino > > > > >
heh... anythings possible ;) I guess we are okay for now then seeing that we are using postgresql with no dblinkg ;)
Alex
Alex
On 10/13/05, Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote:
I wouldn't be so sure of that. IT might be that in order to be
considered to be complying with the contract you have to setup oracle in
such a way as to disable any database to database access / joining.
Seems to me the second you can run a query that hits both databases you
might well be in breach of contract, depending on the terminology used.
On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 14:44, Alex Turner wrote:
> Of course, but _legaly_ we would be complying with the contract ;)
>
> Alex
>
> On 10/13/05, Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote:
> If separate databases are required by contract, and oracle
> lets you
> treat multiple databases like one big one, wouldn't using
> oracle breach
> your contract then? In this case, PostgreSQL's schemas and
> Oracle's
> separate databases are functionally identical, nomenclature
> aside.
>
> On Thu, 2005-10-13 at 13:58, Alex Turner wrote:
> > I could, but it would breach the terms of our contract. Our
> contract
> > with the data providers clearly specifies seperate databases
> ;), so
> > I'm kind of tied down by the legalese.
> >
> > I have certainly considered just putting them in schemas,
> but I talked
> > to legal and they didn't really like that idea ;).
> >
> > Alex
> >
> > On 10/13/05, Tino Wildenhain <tino@wildenhain.de> wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, den 13.10.2005, 13:00 -0400 schrieb
> Alex
> > Turner:
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If I had just one wish for postgresql it would be
> to support
> > > cross-database queries like Oracle. This is a
> HUGE pain in
> > the ass,
> > > and DBI-Link syntax is clunky as hell.
> > >
> > > I would switch to Oracle tomorrow if I had the
> budget just
> > because of
> > > this feature. I have data across four and five
> databases
> > that are
> > > related, and I need to build cross database views,
> and do
> > data munging
> > > _easily_, DBI link is far from easy, and I suspect
> that it's
> > > performance is far from stellar, but I've not
> actualy
> > benched it. For
> > > me this needs to be a core database feature. I
> have certain
> > legal
> > > problems that are also an issue where I have to
> keep data
> > that is
> > > related in seperate databases, and my clients
> _want_ me to
> > cross join
> > > it for select purposes, but I'm legaly required to
> keep it
> > in a
> > > seperate database.
> >
> > Why not put them in separate schemas and tell the
> customers
> > these
> > are separate databases? From outside it looks
> exactly like it.
> > You can constraint the users to the different
> schemas and
> > still
> > join between the tables at will. See
> schema-searchpath and
> > stuff for sticking users to a schema.
> >
> > HTH
> > Tino
> >
> >
>
Am Donnerstag, den 13.10.2005, 15:44 -0400 schrieb Alex Turner: > Of course, but _legaly_ we would be complying with the contract ;) > > Alex > > On 10/13/05, Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@g2switchworks.com> wrote: > If separate databases are required by contract, and oracle > lets you ... > > > > On 10/13/05, Tino Wildenhain <tino@wildenhain.de> wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, den 13.10.2005, 13:00 -0400 schrieb > Alex > > Turner: > > ... ... Btw, would it be possible to stick with usenet/mailinglist usual quoting? Like not posting in HTML and write comments below / between sensibly choosen excerpts? See http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html For the poor fellows out there forced to use an incapable client, there is a little bit relief: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ Greets Tino
Very much a description of the Business I am in. For all the criticism leveled at it, I still think that as a rich Database Client that permits really rapid development of Database driven applications Access is unbeatable. Pair it with a good Database server and it is the perfect combination. That said I would love if there really were an OSS alternative to Access (I would settle even for a closed source competitor whose product philosophy is standards compliance and offers a range of interfaces (JDBC, ODBC, Native Drivers)). I had high hopes for the new Base Application in Open Office but have been disappointed - hopefully continued development will see it improve but at this stage it is a long way from matching Access 97 (or even 95) as a Database client. Which is to say that it is a decade behind MS Access. Although there is a lot to like about Access as a DB client and RAD tool for Database centric applications I worry that Microsoft's desire to use Access to push SQL Server sales, as well as it's fears about OSS, and it's antipathy towards Java, means that the future of a Technology stack built on Postgresql and MS Access looks uncertain. If someone knows of a RAD/DB client that offers what Access does - especially the rapidity with which rich forms can be created, the capabilities and ease of use of the Visual query builder, the breadth of data analysis and manipulation tools that can be run from and on the client, the integration of a capable Report editor which is usable with a small amount of training by the end user, and the ability to easily talk to a spreadsheet or word processor, I would love to hear of it. As it is I find myself combating the FUD that Access really only plays nice with SQL Server all the time, and the fact is that Microsoft's commitment to ODBC is lukewarm, and it will probably be a cold day in hell before Access ships with a JDBC driver, or for that matter sports a well documented API for developing native drivers for Particular Database systems. The absolute necessity of Outlook for many people used to be one of the key strategic locks that Microsoft had, but the development of Evolution on the client end has made exchange competitors like OpenGroupware that much more viable, and the converse is true. There has been massive growth and improvement in the OSS database server segment over the past 5 to 7 years, but it has not been matched on the client end - admittedly the spread of web based applications has disguised the need for such development, but the huge number of SME's with 5-50 employees still need a decent rich Database client if they are to replace their often expensive and primitive off the shelf solutions with tailored solutions. And here the cost is overwhelmingly represented by developer time. With Access I can spend time make sure my Postgresql back end is all that it can be, knowing that when the time comes I can create most of the forms that I will need with a single click of the Autoform button , and ten minutes later, after cleaning up a few captions and adding some drop down lists, and then a bit of extra functionality with VBA, such as pumping a Query into Form letters or charts or a report, I am done. And because these are not the sort of companies who can afford a full time DBA, it is handy that Access permits a mildly technically savvy user to extend it, which means the client can add customizations when they need to provided you have documented the schema for them. Doing the same thing with either a web scripting language or a Java IDE is still a process that takes 4 to 6 times as long, (when equivalent functionality is even available) and this pretty much prices most SME's out of the market except for either trivial applications (which is what the majority of web based applications in this market are) or for projects that become quite risky for developer and client alike. Johan Wehtje Alex Turner wrote: > Actualy to me, it seems like postgres is a perfect partner for MS > Access. Throw out Jet, and use Pgsql. It's infinately better than Jet, > so operating in a Win98 environment seems reasonable in this scenario. > > I swear you could build a business just building MS Access apps on a > Postgresql databases so that they can actualy _scale_ when a business grows. > > Alex > > On 10/13/05, *Chris Travers* <chris@travelamericas.com > <mailto:chris@travelamericas.com>> wrote: > > Alex Turner wrote: > > > Support for windows 98 was infact extended to June 2006: > > http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean1 > > > Right.... > > And it was extended again last year as it was supposed to extend this > last June, and Last June, etc. We will see if it is not extended > again.... > > But if you are running an production database on Windows 98 you have > bigger problems than support from Microsoft.... > > Best Wishes, > Chris Travers > Metatron Technology Consulting > >
Someone trying to stick microsoft yet another place they don't belong. --- Johan Wehtje <joweht@tpgi.com.au> wrote: > Very much a description of the Business I am in. > > For all the criticism leveled at it, I still think > that as a rich > Database Client that permits really rapid > development of Database driven > applications Access is unbeatable. Pair it with a > good Database server > and it is the perfect combination. __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
I doubt you read the rest of the post otherwise I don't think you would make that comment. I think there really is a need for a rich DB client that allows Rapid development and is easy to link to an office Suite. To be useful to a business a database needs the applications built on top of it, and like I said if someone can show me a quicker way of doing this than Access and still lets me use Postgresql for my backend without any great drama, I would love to hear of it. My experience with Access 2000 and the latest ODBC drivers has been very positive, but I am wary of Microsoft's intentions for Access going forward, which I why I asked if anyone knew of a really viable alternative that I have not tried. The next best thing that I have tried is Delphi with some of the libraries available from Sqlmanager or Active Query builder. But really, for most of the situations I encounter this is a bit like re-inventing the wheel every time someone wants a cart built. You end up trying to build an Access like application from the ground up every time someone wants a Db app. And that seems to me to be taking antipathy towards Microsoft to a point where it benefits no-one. Cheers Johan Wehtje Matthew Peter wrote: > Someone trying to stick microsoft yet another place > they don't belong. > > > --- Johan Wehtje <joweht@tpgi.com.au> wrote: > >> Very much a description of the Business I am in. >> >> For all the criticism leveled at it, I still think >> that as a rich >> Database Client that permits really rapid >> development of Database driven >> applications Access is unbeatable. Pair it with a >> good Database server >> and it is the perfect combination. > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq > > . >
Johan Wehtje wrote: > I doubt you read the rest of the post otherwise I don't think you > would make that comment. Personlly I think you were right. Access is a good front end, at least in the sense that it is a hell of a lot better than anything the OSS community has bothered to come up with. I actually Paradox is a better choice :). It is also a front-end that customers are comfortable with. > > I think there really is a need for a rich DB client that allows Rapid > development and is easy to link to an office Suite. To be useful to a > business a database needs the applications built on top of it, and > like I said if someone can show me a quicker way of doing this than > Access and still lets me use Postgresql for my backend without any > great drama, I would love to hear of it. My experience with Access > 2000 and the latest ODBC drivers has been very positive, but I am wary > of Microsoft's intentions for Access going forward, which I why I > asked if anyone knew of a really viable alternative that I have not > tried. FYI Open Office 2.0 database, forms, reports etc... is MUCH better than it was. I believe you can script it as well in Python and maybe Java. > > The next best thing that I have tried is Delphi with some of the > libraries available from Sqlmanager or Active Query builder. You can use Kylix for that but I don't know its status. > > But really, for most of the situations I encounter this is a bit like > re-inventing the wheel every time someone wants a cart built. You end > up trying to build an Access like application from the ground up every > time someone wants a Db app. And that seems to me to be taking > antipathy towards Microsoft to a point where it benefits no-one. > > Cheers > Johan Wehtje > > Matthew Peter wrote: > >> Someone trying to stick microsoft yet another place >> they don't belong. >> >> --- Johan Wehtje <joweht@tpgi.com.au> wrote: >> >>> Very much a description of the Business I am in. >>> >>> For all the criticism leveled at it, I still think >>> that as a rich Database Client that permits really rapid >>> development of Database driven applications Access is unbeatable. >>> Pair it with a >>> good Database server and it is the perfect combination. >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over >> 1 million songs. Try it free. >> http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ >> >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? >> >> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq >> >> . >> > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster -- Your PostgreSQL solutions company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.800.492.2240 PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Programming, 24x7 support Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/
On Oct 13, 2005, at 12:00 PM, Alex Turner wrote: > > <snip> > > > > >Instance Manager: Uniquely MySQL. It allows things like starting > and > >stopping the database remotely. > > > > > I cannot think of a reason ever to need this when we have OpenSSH.... > <snip> > > I'm just curious, but how does this work for a windows box? There are plenty of Remote Management options for Windows. One of the common ones ships with XP Pro and allows you to start and stop services remotely, etc. Jeff
Re: PostgreSQL 8.1 vs. MySQL 5.0? > Access-like Query builder > C++ Vector-based GUI binding
От
Matthew Peter
Дата:
This thread should continue under the proper title since it's been hi-jacked . I didn't read your entire post. If you know how to join a pk and fk it's not difficult to build an effective diagram on paper and reuse the same schema for other applications. > > I think there really is a need for a rich DB > client that allows Rapid > > development and is easy to link to an office > Suite. To be useful to a > > business a database needs the applications built > on top of it Ya I watched the videos on microsofts new Mail & sparkle applications. Mail suprisingly uses a database backend to manage their files which may helped open eyes of the ways they could use them in other ares of the desktop. For instance, w/ sparkle you could write a simple program to do what you need as defining tables and relationships is easy. They also have a 3d engine so you can emerse yourself in the database and fly around the tables! Is it possible to bind vector interfaces to C++ apps w/ libs like (<a href="http://www.linuxartist.org/2d.html">ZODIUS</a>)? I'm not sure how ENLIGHTENMENT runs their engine on xorg but it's not vector based. If possible I'd like to know. I don't have the time now but in the near future I plan to find out. Maybe someone here already knows? It would be pretty neat to build desktop packages that scale and stretch any resolution or device. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
Here are some apparent problems with MySQL 5.0: - Concurrent ALTER TABLE - Replicated Session Variables and Concurrent ALTER TABLE - BIT indexing that [doesn't] actually uses a BIT! - SELECT * FROM FOO WHERE ID IN ( SELECT FOO_ID FROM BAR ) [doesn't use index] http://www.feedblog.org/2005/10/whats_next_afte.html __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com