Обсуждение: Does this look ethical to you?
I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way. This isn't really postgresal related but I was just wondering what others thought about this. Thanks, -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Tony Caduto wrote: > I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page > > http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php > > I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way. > > This isn't really postgresal related but I was just wondering what > others thought about this. I don't have a problem with it, especially since they mention it is their version of PostgreSQL (they use our name). -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Tony Caduto wrote: > I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page > > http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php > > I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way. > > This isn't really postgresal related but I was just wondering what > others thought about this. Well IMHO it is PostgreSQL related as you are both offering a PostgreSQL product. It is not uncommon to do something like this as a keyword on Google Adwords or something but to place a direct URL.... I would call it fairly shady. I am guessing that by doing so they are getting placement within search engines or something. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > Thanks, >
Bruce Momjian wrote: > Tony Caduto wrote: > >> I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page >> >> http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php >> >> I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way. >> >> This isn't really postgresal related but I was just wondering what >> others thought about this. >> > > I don't have a problem with it, especially since they mention it is > their version of PostgreSQL (they use our name). > I might be misunderstanding your point Bruce but I believe Tony's problem is not that they are using PostgreSQL's name but they are using Pg Lightning in their name which is Tony's product not Navicats.. Think about as if Command Prompt would to start using SRAAPowergres in their URL's.. At least that I how I read it. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Tony Caduto wrote: > > > >> I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page > >> > >> http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php > >> > >> I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way. > >> > >> This isn't really postgresal related but I was just wondering what > >> others thought about this. > >> > > > > I don't have a problem with it, especially since they mention it is > > their version of PostgreSQL (they use our name). > > > I might be misunderstanding your point Bruce but I believe Tony's > problem is not that they are using > PostgreSQL's name but they are using Pg Lightning in their name which is > Tony's product not > Navicats.. > > Think about as if Command Prompt would to start using SRAAPowergres in > their URL's.. > > At least that I how I read it. Oh, I thought they were shipping PG lighening admin too. The URL no longer works so I wonder if they thought better of the practice. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Tony Caduto wrote: > > I would call it fairly shady. I am guessing that by doing so they are > getting placement within search > engines or something. Hi Joshua, Yep, that's the part that I don't like. Using Postgresql in there is one thing as it's good because you have to have Postgresql in order to use any admin program. I once by mistake used Instant Messenger in a title on one of my pages and had links that had Instant Messenger and AOL had a cow and made me remove the links. I don't see how Navicat using PG Lightning Admin in their links and title is any different. They must be threatend by my product :-) I did ask them nicely to remove the link, we shall see. Thanks for the input. -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Tony..... > I was doing a search on Google and found this link on Navicat's web page > > http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/index.php > > I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this way. Well, technically they aren't hijacking your product name, they are hijacking some of your potential users by putting your product name in the page title and page url and saying they have a replacement that's better. It sucks. However, there are some positives. They didn't put your product name in the page keywords. It makes them look bad, sort of like when politicians sling mud. I make it a point NEVER to vote for a candidate that does that. (Obviously I vote for a lot of Independents). They are giving your product some extra credence by even using it as a measuring stick to theirs. But it still sucks...... Occasionally I find somebody stealing my Musicians Classified Listings and I've had the same ticked off feeling. In the long run I just grin and take it (and do what I can to make it harder for other sites to steal listings, but I can't think how you could do something like that in this situation). Maybe if you take the high road you could work something out that would help you both? Well, good luck with it.... brew ========================================================================== Strange Brew (brew@theMode.com) Check out my Stock Option Covered Call website http://www.callpix.com and my Musician's Online Database Exchange http://www.TheMode.com ==========================================================================
Bruce Momjian wrote: > > Oh, I thought they were shipping PG lighening admin too. The URL no > longer works so I wonder if they thought better of the practice. > No, PG Lightning Admin is my product name, and I think they are doing something with a link to my page in their page because my page is down now also , something is really fishy with Navicat. Seems odd that my ISP is down and their page has a input problem...hmmm I did send them a email about it about 1/2 hour ago, so maybe they are in the process of fixing this issue. Thanks for your input on this guys. -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Tony.....
> Maybe if you take the high road you could work something out that would
> help you both?
Well, since the page is gone already I'd say both parties seem to be
playing fair.
Good deal!
brew
==========================================================================
Strange Brew (brew@theMode.com)
Check out my Stock Option Covered Call website http://www.callpix.com
and my Musician's Online Database Exchange http://www.TheMode.com
==========================================================================
they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin: http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php this one renders... both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a cached view on google.
brew@theMode.com wrote: > > Well, since the page is gone already I'd say both parties seem to be > playing fair. > > Good deal! > > brew I don't know about that, the link is still there, it just gives a error of No input file specified, which just indicates the index.php in http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/ is gone or having a problem. I asked them nicely to remove it within 24 hours, so we shall see. Thanks again for the input. -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
> > I don't know about that, the link is still there, it just gives a > error of No input file specified, which just indicates the index.php > in http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Lightning_Admin/ is gone or having a > problem. > > I asked them nicely to remove it within 24 hours, so we shall see. > Well the could just have a generic url rewriter.... > Thanks again for the input. >
George Pavlov wrote: > they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin: > > http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php > > this one renders... > > both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a cached > view on google. At least PG Admin is free software and doing that is not really hurting anyone since (at least I don't think) no one is making money off of PG Admin III. I do mention my product as a PG Admin III alternative but I would never use Navicat or EMS PG Manager by name anywhere on my site. I use words like "Other Companies" etc. I would like to know how they get such good placment on all the search engines, you do a search on "Postgresql GUI admin" and all you get on the first page is their stuff. Later, -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
the blue links at the top (as it states in the top right) are sponsor'd links ... they pay for those to be there, and, I'd imagine, pay quite heavily :( On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Tony Caduto wrote: > George Pavlov wrote: >> they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin: >> >> http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php >> >> this one renders... >> >> both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a cached >> view on google. > > > At least PG Admin is free software and doing that is not really hurting > anyone since (at least I don't think) no one is making money off of PG Admin > III. > > I do mention my product as a PG Admin III alternative but I would never use > Navicat or EMS PG Manager by name anywhere on my site. I use words like > "Other Companies" etc. > > I would like to know how they get such good placment on all the search > engines, you do a search on "Postgresql GUI admin" and all you get on the > first page is their stuff. > > Later, > > -- > Tony Caduto > AM Software Design > Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql > http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq > ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
> George Pavlov wrote: > > they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin: > > > > http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php > > > > this one renders... > > > > both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a > > cached view on google. > > > At least PG Admin is free software and doing that is not > really hurting anyone since (at least I don't think) no one > is making money off of PG Admin III. > > I do mention my product as a PG Admin III alternative but I > would never use Navicat or EMS PG Manager by name anywhere on > my site. I use words like "Other Companies" etc. If you don't use "other companies" by name, you shouldn't use pgAdmin by name either, IMHO. But as long as you list it as "alternative for ...", it should be just fine to list any product name, as long as any comparison is fair. (And if it's not fair, you should just take it off. Now, I think actually putting it in the *title* of your site is not a nice way to play. Again, IMHO of course. I don't buy the argument that it makes a difference wether people pay for the product or not. There are still people putting considerable amount of work into pgAdmin, as with most opensource products. I don't see why they should be treated differently from people putting work in and getting paid for it. > I would like to know how they get such good placment on all > the search engines, you do a search on "Postgresql GUI admin" > and all you get on the first page is their stuff. You mean like the way sticking "pgadmin" in the title of a page not related with it will get you traffic not "meant" to go there? It's not as "bad" as sticking it in the URL, but in my book it's certainly not far off. In this case, that looks like paid links. And "spamming" every download site they can find. Sort of like any search for "pgadmin alternative" brings up links like http://www.soft3k.com/kw/pgadmin-alternative.htm. The idea is to match the url and title to the keywords which will bring the results higher up in teh search. Your main point (per the title of the site) is "pgadmin III alternative". Theirs is, again per the title of the site, "the worlds best gui for windows, linux and macos x". (Your site comes back up on the ranking if you put in "postgresql gui admin client", because then it takes over from the pgadmin part, I guess) //Magnus
> -----Original Message----- > From: Magnus Hagander [mailto:mha@sollentuna.net] > Sent: 24 January 2006 09:05 > To: Tony Caduto; George Pavlov > Cc: Bruce Momjian; pgsql-general@postgresql.org; Dave Page > Subject: RE: [GENERAL] Does this look ethical to you? > > > George Pavlov wrote: > > > they have the same kind of page setup for pg Admin: > > > > > > http://pgsql.navicat.com/PG_Admin/index.php > > > > > > this one renders... > > > > > > both pages seem to tell robots not to cache them, so can't view a > > > cached view on google. > > > > > > At least PG Admin is free software and doing that is not > > really hurting anyone since (at least I don't think) no one > > is making money off of PG Admin III. There most certainly are companies making money from pgAdmin, including at least 2 of the most well known large PostgreSQL companies. In addition to potentially hurting them, you are trading off our long established name, which to add insult to injury you haven't even spelt or formatted correctly (it is, and has always been pgAdmin)! > > I do mention my product as a PG Admin III alternative but I > > would never use Navicat or EMS PG Manager by name anywhere on > > my site. I use words like "Other Companies" etc. If it helps at all, we ask our supporters to follow this guideline when setting up keywords etc on software directory type sites: "These should reflect any aspect of what pgAdmin does, and what it works with. <b>Under no circumstances should you include competitors company or product names in keywords.</b> " I would appreciate it if you would hold yourself to a similar standard and stop using pgAdmin's name to promote your product. Regards, Dave.
Dave Page wrote: > There most certainly are companies making money from pgAdmin, including > at least 2 of the most well known large PostgreSQL companies. In > addition to potentially hurting them, you are trading off our long > established name, which to add insult to injury you haven't even spelt > or formatted correctly (it is, and has always been pgAdmin)! Hi Dave, Those companies simply bundle pgAdmin III, they don't sell it, there is a big difference. I know for a fact the ones you are talking about and the version they bundle have no changes over the stock one at all. I don't think mentioning a product as a alternative to pgAdmin III is wrong since pgAdmin III has such a big advantage being distributed with the Windows version of Postgresql. It almost has monopoly written on it since the user is not given any idea that there is anything else available. At least you are not forced to install it, but still a HUGE,HUGE advantage over any other competing product. pgAdmin does not play fair either, if you want to talk fair maybe a link should be placed in the windows pgAdmin installer informing users of other comercially available options. Thanks for the heads up on the spelling, I was not aware it was spelled like that. Later, Tony -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
> -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony.caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com] > Sent: 24 January 2006 13:56 > To: Dave Page > Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Does this look ethical to you? > > Those companies simply bundle pgAdmin III, they don't sell > it, there is > a big difference. I know for a fact the ones you are talking > about and > the version they bundle have no changes over the stock one at all. One of the two has extensively modified it. I don't know about the other. Whether or not the sell it seperately is not the point though - they do sell it as part of the product suite they offer. > I don't think mentioning a product as a alternative to pgAdmin III is > wrong since pgAdmin III has such a big advantage being > distributed with > the Windows version of Postgresql. It almost has monopoly > written on it > since the user is not given any idea that there is anything else > available. At least you are not forced to install it, but still a > HUGE,HUGE advantage over any other competing product. It's open source and is certainly the best option a present to bundle with the installer. If you want to open source PG Lightning Admin, and add the missing features that pgAdmin has such as Slony support, job scheduling, graphical explain and UI translations into a number of different languages, then I'm sure Magnus and I would be happy to look at including it. > pgAdmin does not play fair either, if you want to talk fair > maybe a link > should be placed in the windows pgAdmin installer informing users of > other comercially available options. By that token, every Linux distribution would have to tell users about MS Windows whilst it was installing. Does the fact that they don't mean they aren't playing fair? Should the PostgreSQL distributions also mention Oracle or DB2? Regards, Dave
> > There most certainly are companies making money from pgAdmin, > > including at least 2 of the most well known large PostgreSQL > > companies. In addition to potentially hurting them, you are trading > > off our long established name, which to add insult to injury you > > haven't even spelt or formatted correctly (it is, and has > always been pgAdmin)! > > Hi Dave, > Those companies simply bundle pgAdmin III, they don't sell > it, there is a big difference. I know for a fact the ones > you are talking about and the version they bundle have no > changes over the stock one at all. Then your facts are wrong. At least one of the ones Dave is talking about has done extensive modifications for it. And sell it as part of a commercial product. (I would assume that's what he's talking about. If not, this is a different company, but it's still there) > I don't think mentioning a product as a alternative to > pgAdmin III is wrong since pgAdmin III has such a big > advantage being distributed with the Windows version of > Postgresql. It almost has monopoly written on it since the > user is not given any idea that there is anything else > available. At least you are not forced to install it, but > still a HUGE,HUGE advantage over any other competing product. We (pginstaller hat goes on) don't know of any competing products. We will be happy to consider bundling any competing product, including PG Lightning Admin. One of the most important things in order to be distributed as part of an open source product is that the parts are open source. If PGLA (or a lite version if necessary) is available under an OSS license, we'll definitly consider bundling it. (We have considered bundling phpPgAdmin, but haven't found a good way to do it without dragging in a huge load of dependencies) If that's not acceptable, there is nothing preventing you from delivering a "Lightning PostgreSQL". All the parts that are in the installer are open source, it's just a matter of making the modification to put in pg lightning admin there. You might need to do something about the GPL stuff, don't know for sure. The BSD parts definitly permit it. But to be clear, I don't think it's wrong to say that PGLA is an alternative to pgAdmin. Because that's what it is. It's just a matter of *how* it's done. > pgAdmin does not play fair either, if you want to talk fair > maybe a link should be placed in the windows pgAdmin > installer informing users of other comercially available options. You're kidding, right? Should we also mention in the PostgreSQL installer that you should perhaps look at Oracle or DB2? And I don't see most Linux distributions informing the users that Windows might be an alternative. We *do* put up links to commercial management software on the website (PostgreSQL website, because that's where it applies), and we post news about it. IMHO, that's about as far as "the project" should go when it comes to "free marketing for commercial software". //Magnus
> There most certainly are companies making money from pgAdmin, including > at least 2 of the most well known large PostgreSQL companies. In > addition to potentially hurting them, you are trading off our long > established name, which to add insult to injury you haven't even spelt > or formatted correctly (it is, and has always been pgAdmin)! here is my keywords: Postgresql,pg,admin,GUI,alternative,PSQL,pgsql,gui,postgres I removed the III. Not that it would ever have hurt pgAdmin III, but to show good faith I changed them in my shareware pad file and on my homepage. No how about getting a link or something in the win32 Postgresql installer back to the commercial products page: http://www.postgresql.org/download/commercial Thanks, -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
> -----Original Message----- > From: Magnus Hagander [mailto:mha@sollentuna.net] > Sent: 24 January 2006 14:22 > To: Tony Caduto; Dave Page > Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: RE: [GENERAL] Does this look ethical to you? > > > > pgAdmin does not play fair either, if you want to talk fair > > maybe a link should be placed in the windows pgAdmin > > installer informing users of other comercially available options. > > You're kidding, right? Should we also mention in the PostgreSQL > installer that you should perhaps look at Oracle or DB2? And > I don't see > most Linux distributions informing the users that Windows might be an > alternative. Deja-vu... > We *do* put up links to commercial management software on the website > (PostgreSQL website, because that's where it applies), and we > post news > about it. IMHO, that's about as far as "the project" should go when it > comes to "free marketing for commercial software". Agreed. And as I'm sure Tony will recall, not only do we offer that service, it was actually me that created the page on the site originally for Lightning Admin which was the first product listed! Regards, Dave.
Hi, On Tue, 2006-01-24 at 08:24 -0600, Tony Caduto wrote: > No how about getting a link or something in the win32 Postgresql > installer back to the commercial products page: > http://www.postgresql.org/download/commercial Are you kidding? -- The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.503.667.4564 PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/
> -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony.caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com] > Sent: 24 January 2006 14:25 > To: Dave Page > Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Does this look ethical to you? > > > > There most certainly are companies making money from > pgAdmin, including > > at least 2 of the most well known large PostgreSQL companies. In > > addition to potentially hurting them, you are trading off our long > > established name, which to add insult to injury you haven't > even spelt > > or formatted correctly (it is, and has always been pgAdmin)! > > here is my keywords: > > Postgresql,pg,admin,GUI,alternative,PSQL,pgsql,gui,postgres > > I removed the III. Thank you, however I'm more concerned with: "PGLA has many advanced features not found in pgAdmin III,". Aside from it being slightly misleading (not only are there not many 'advanced' things PGLA can do that pgAdmin can't, there are a similar number that pgAdmin can, that PGLA can't), it is still attempting to sell your product on our name. I would therefore ask that you either: - Not mention pgAdmin at all, or - Mention not only pgAdmin, but EDB Studio, Navicat, EMS PostgreSQL Manager and other comparable products *as well*. > No how about getting a link or something in the win32 Postgresql > installer back to the commercial products page: > http://www.postgresql.org/download/commercial Why? It is an Open Source package, distributed for free, at the personal expense of numerous people including myself. Why should we advertise your or anyone elses commercial products for free? Regards, Dave
>>You're kidding, right? Should we also mention in the PostgreSQL >>installer that you should perhaps look at Oracle or DB2? No I am not kidding, it's more akin to MS bundling a web browser and a media player. That would be a more appropiate example. MS does it to destroy competitors. I understand that it is done with pgAdmin as a convenience thing, but it has the side effect of hurting the 3rd party market. A couple of years ago there was no 3rd party admin tools for Postgresql, pgAdmin was all that was available, but that has now changed and that change should be looked at. The fact of the matter is pgAdmin III is bundled in a manner that does not let the user know there are alternatives available plain and simple. Because of the way pgAdmin is bundled it is effectivly destroying the third party admin market which should be a good thing for Postgresql not viewed as a bad thing. Look at Mysql, they never had a bundled admin tool until recently and it is the most popular psuedo open source DB on the market. People are always going to use pgAdmin because it is free, you will never have a problem getting users, but it should not be at the expense of the third party market. I am just raising a valid concern, no need for flames. -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
> -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony.caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com] > Sent: 24 January 2006 14:57 > To: Dave Page > Cc: Magnus Hagander; pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Does this look ethical to you? > > > No I am not kidding, it's more akin to MS bundling a web > browser and a > media player. That would be a more appropiate example. MS does it to > destroy competitors. People don't usually complain about their inclusion - they tend to complain about not being able to get rid of them. And most people that I know well actually would rather they were there to save the hassle of getting something else. pgAdmin is easily removed, or may not be installed in the first place if you prefer. > I understand that it is done with pgAdmin as a > convenience thing, but it has the side effect of hurting the > 3rd party > market. A couple of years ago there was no 3rd party admin tools for > Postgresql, pgAdmin was all that was available, but that has > now changed > and that change should be looked at. What's that got to do with including a link in the pgAdmin installer which is what you asked for? > The fact of the matter is pgAdmin III is bundled in a manner > that does > not let the user know there are alternatives available plain > and simple. > > Look at Mysql, they never had a bundled admin tool until > recently and it > is the most popular psuedo open source > DB on the market. MySQL are irrelevant. More relevant are the commercial databases that are comparable in functionality to PostgreSQL, such as Oracle, DB2 and SQL Server. All of which bundle admin tools, and none of which advertise third party tools to my knowledge, or have ever been accused of unfair practices by doing so. As I said before, if you want to produce an OSS version of PGLA, then we will happily consider including it in the installer. We *will not* be advertising or bundling commercial products in pgInstaller. > People are always going to use pgAdmin because it is free, you will > never have a problem getting users, but it should not be at > the expense > of the third party market. Maybe you should contact Marc about advertising on postgresql.org, or consider Google Ads. Either will get your far wider exposure on the PostgreSQL website that is almost certainly visited by the vast majority of PostgreSQL users. > I am just raising a valid concern, no need for flames. I don't flame, I blacklist. Regards, Dave
> Thank you, however I'm more concerned with: > > "PGLA has many advanced features not found in pgAdmin III,". > > Aside from it being slightly misleading (not only are there not many > 'advanced' things PGLA can do that pgAdmin can't, there are a similar > number that pgAdmin can, that PGLA can't), it is still attempting to > sell your product on our name. I would therefore ask that you either: > > - Not mention pgAdmin at all, or > - Mention not only pgAdmin, but EDB Studio, Navicat, EMS PostgreSQL > Manager and other comparable products *as well*. I changed it to say PGLA has many advanced GUI features not found in other admin tools. I play fair Dave, and expect the same from you. <Why? It is an Open Source package, distributed for free, at the personal expense of numerous people including myself. Why should we advertise your or anyone elses commercial products for free?> Because the installer is not letting it be known that there are alternatives available, I have had many people tell me they had no idea there where was anything else available. It does not matter that pgAdmin is open source, and letting users know about alternatives is not free advertising, free advertising would be you paying for my Google addwords account. You guys are doing the same thing as Microsoft did with Internet Explorer, let's include it so our browser/admin tool is all the user knows about or sees when they install the OS, or in this case the SQL server. A link or blurb should be mentioned that there are other admin tools available or pgAdmin should not be installed either. I am not saying you put specifics about mine or anyone elses product commercial or open source, but I think links back to the commercial and open source pages on the postgresql site would be a fair thing to do. You are not letting the user make a choice about which admin tool to use or even try... Just my opinion on the whole fair competition thing, -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
> -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Caduto [mailto:tony.caduto@amsoftwaredesign.com] > Sent: 24 January 2006 15:24 > To: Dave Page > Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Does this look ethical to you? > > I changed it to say PGLA has many advanced GUI features not found in > other admin tools. Thank you. Regards, Dave
Hi, On Tue, 2006-01-24 at 07:56 -0600, Tony Caduto wrote: > I don't think mentioning a product as a alternative to pgAdmin III is > wrong since pgAdmin III has such a big advantage being distributed > with > the Windows version of Postgresql. It almost has monopoly written on > it > since the user is not given any idea that there is anything else > available. At least you are not forced to install it, but still a > HUGE,HUGE advantage over any other competing product. IMHO pgAdmin does not compete with other "products", since it is a community-driven GUI for PostgreSQL. Look what you wrote yesterday: On Mon, 2006-01-23 at 20:52 -0600, Tony Caduto wrote: > I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this > way. PGLA is *your* *product*, but pgAdmin is community software. As stated before, I think many people will be glad if you distribute PGLA (or a part of it) as OSS. So pgAdmin is apart from many other GUIs since it is OSS and has excellent features like Slony, GE, etc. It deserves to be distributed with Windows Installer, unless another Open Source GUI which may beat pgAdmin with its features appears on the stage. Also it is available on Linux and some *nix systems, which I think is one of the best features. Regards, -- The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.503.667.4564 PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/
Tony Caduto wrote: >> Thank you, however I'm more concerned with: >> >> "PGLA has many advanced features not found in pgAdmin III,". >> >> Aside from it being slightly misleading (not only are there not many >> 'advanced' things PGLA can do that pgAdmin can't, there are a similar >> number that pgAdmin can, that PGLA can't), it is still attempting to >> sell your product on our name. I would therefore ask that you either: >> >> - Not mention pgAdmin at all, or >> - Mention not only pgAdmin, but EDB Studio, Navicat, EMS PostgreSQL >> Manager and other comparable products *as well*. > > I changed it to say PGLA has many advanced GUI features not found in > other admin tools. > > I play fair Dave, and expect the same from you. > > <Why? It is an Open Source package, distributed for free, at the personal > expense of numerous people including myself. Why should we advertise > your or anyone elses commercial products for free?> > > Because the installer is not letting it be known that there are > alternatives available, I have had many people tell me they had no idea > there where was anything else available. > > It does not matter that pgAdmin is open source, and letting users know > about alternatives is not free advertising, free advertising would be > you paying for my Google addwords account. > > You guys are doing the same thing as Microsoft did with Internet > Explorer, let's include it so our browser/admin tool is all the user > knows about or sees when they install the OS, or in this case the SQL > server. > > A link or blurb should be mentioned that there are other admin tools > available or pgAdmin should not be installed either. > > I am not saying you put specifics about mine or anyone elses product > commercial or open source, but I think links back to the commercial and > open source pages on the postgresql site would be a fair thing to do. > > You are not letting the user make a choice about which admin tool to use > or even try... > > Just my opinion on the whole fair competition thing, > I'm not sure I understand some of these arguments, and I don't know the history, so as an uninformed third party who can'tresist adding my tupennyw'th... a) pgAdmin happens to be an admin tool that undercuts other tools in terms of price (free) and for some features b) It has negotiated a distribution channel with partner organisations - something that any other organisation presumablyis free to do. You just have to have the right proposition (OSS) to entice that partner to work with you. c) If you would like pgAdmin to mention that there are more expensive alternative products - would your product before completinga sale recommend that people go take a look at pgAdmin first and see whether that might be a better alternative? Just out of interest - which product came first? I've been aware of pgAdmin for a long time - if it was there first you'dhave to look closely at whether there was a commercial business case for trying to get into that market with a broadly similar product. A valid business case would obviously include making sure there were suitable accessible channels to market and sufficientfunds to finance those channels. OSS projects don't often have a cash generating base to fund those channels so they are always at a disadvantageto commercial ventures. Personally I'd be a little uneasy trying to build a commercial product that piggybacks on an OSS product simply because ifit's something useful and important, as opposed to niche, then someone will add an OSS version and, if they do their work properly, destroy my market. Pete -- http://www.whitebeam.org http://www.yellowhawk.co.uk -----
Magnus Hagander wrote: > We (pginstaller hat goes on) don't know of any competing products. We > will be happy to consider bundling any competing product, including PG > Lightning Admin. One of the most important things in order to be > distributed as part of an open source product is that the parts are open > source. If PGLA (or a lite version if necessary) is available under an > OSS license, we'll definitly consider bundling it. > (We have considered bundling phpPgAdmin, but haven't found a good way to > do it without dragging in a huge load of dependencies) I don't wan't to be bundled, I just want it to be known that there are alternatives available. Postgresql is free, so what is the big deal about letting users know about alternative admin tools comercial or open source? It's not like it would put pgAdmin or Postgresql out of business(it could only help). It's a shame you don't see how the bundling of pgAdmin(in the current way) is hurting the 3rd party community. All that would be needed is a installer section at the end saying something like: In addition to pgAdmin III there are other opensource and commercial admin products available, you can get more information here <link back to postgresql home page>. I don't see that as being detrimental to anyone and would certainly be in fair play. -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
> <Why? It is an Open Source package, distributed for free, at > the personal expense of numerous people including myself. Why > should we advertise your or anyone elses commercial products > for free?> > > Because the installer is not letting it be known that there > are alternatives available, I have had many people tell me > they had no idea there where was anything else available. > > It does not matter that pgAdmin is open source, Yes, it does. That is *exactly* what matters. If pgAdmin wasn't open source, it wouldn't be in there. > and letting > users know about alternatives is not free advertising, free > advertising would be you paying for my Google addwords account. There we definitly disagree. I would consider it free advertising. Not as direct, but still. > You guys are doing the same thing as Microsoft did with > Internet Explorer, let's include it so our browser/admin tool > is all the user knows about or sees when they install the OS, > or in this case the SQL server. I don't think we do, and frankly, I resent that comment. As an admin in a network that is a big user of Microsoft products, the bundling of IE and Media Player is a *good thing to me as a customer*. The same thing applies to me as an "end user at home". The thing that is bad is the inability to replace them with something else, and the inability to get rid of them if I want to. Neither of which applies to pgAdmin - it's trivial to get rid of it. > A link or blurb should be mentioned that there are other > admin tools available or pgAdmin should not be installed either. I'd find it reasonable to add a blurb somewhere about "note that there are other tools and addons available. See for example http://www.postgresql.org/download" or something like that. That certainly provides some value to the end user, and there are also several other OSS projects that would like that exposure. (Exact wording is of course up for discussion) Does this fulfill your wish for a link/blurb? //Magnus
Yes, that is all I am asking. Sorry about the MS reference, but I needed to make a point :-) > I'd find it reasonable to add a blurb somewhere about "note that there > are other tools and addons available. See for example > http://www.postgresql.org/download" or something like that. That > certainly provides some value to the end user, and there are also > several other OSS projects that would like that exposure. (Exact wording > is of course up for discussion) > > Does this fulfill your wish for a link/blurb? Thanks for hearing me out, -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Devrim GUNDUZ wrote: > >>I am kind of ticked off that they are hijacking my product name this >>way. Yep, but they were using direct links, and I changed any verbage I had immediatly when Dave asked me to. If navicat had mentioned my product in their web page I really wouldn't care, but they had links like this: http://www.navicat.com/pg_lighting_admin/index.html That looks like they are selling PG Lighting Admin. Big difference. I also never stated that my product or any other should be bundled with the win32 installer, I just meant that it should be made known to the user that other options for administration are available. I also never stated I thought direct links should be made from the installer to any of my home pages. I am thinking more of the big picture and something that would benefit all third party tool vendors commercial or open source. Doing something like that in no way could hurt pgAdmin III, since there is nothing to hurt(it's free after all). I think we have beat this into the ground, lets drop it now. I think everyone is or will be happy :-) -- Tony Caduto AM Software Design Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Tony Caduto wrote: > You are not letting the user make a choice about which admin tool to use > or even try... My understanding was that pgInstaller gave you the option to install pgAdmin III, it isn't a *requirement* to install it, like it is with your analogy of M$+IE ... > Just my opinion on the whole fair competition thing, but, we aren't competing against anyone ... you are competing against us, which puts the onous on your to do the marketing, not us ... ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: scrappy@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
> > I don't wan't to be bundled, I just want it to be known that there are > alternatives available. > I don't think it is reasonable to expect the OSS project within the OSS installer to mention commercial alternatives IF they are shipping an already available OSS product. What I mean is that the OSS Win32 Installer is shipping PgAdmin why should they mention your product? If I were to suggest that the Win32 Installer should mention Replicator there would be an uproar, rightfully so. > Postgresql is free, so what is the big deal about letting users know > about alternative admin tools comercial or open source? It's not like > it would put pgAdmin or Postgresql out of business(it could only help). PostgreSQL is free and the PostgreSQL.Org project does let people know about other tools on the website. > It's a shame you don't see how the bundling of pgAdmin(in the current > way) is hurting the 3rd party community. > You are welcome to create your own Win32 Installer. I don't see it as hurting the 3rd party community. I see it as helping the PostgreSQL community. > > I don't see that as being detrimental to anyone and would certainly be > in fair play. > Fair play? It could be argued that the fact that you don't open source your product means that you don't believe in fair play. I don't personally buy that argument but I assure you it will be made if this thread continues. The PostgreSQL community does a very good job of giving the commercial counter parts their due. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake
The people who develop, package, and host pginstaller files are doing so to promote open source software for users, not to help you sell commercial software. For that, you are on your own. If you want to find volunteers to help you promote and sell your software, good luck. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Caduto wrote: > Magnus Hagander wrote: > > We (pginstaller hat goes on) don't know of any competing products. We > > will be happy to consider bundling any competing product, including PG > > Lightning Admin. One of the most important things in order to be > > distributed as part of an open source product is that the parts are open > > source. If PGLA (or a lite version if necessary) is available under an > > OSS license, we'll definitly consider bundling it. > > (We have considered bundling phpPgAdmin, but haven't found a good way to > > do it without dragging in a huge load of dependencies) > > I don't wan't to be bundled, I just want it to be known that there are > alternatives available. > > Postgresql is free, so what is the big deal about letting users know > about alternative admin tools comercial or open source? It's not like > it would put pgAdmin or Postgresql out of business(it could only help). > > It's a shame you don't see how the bundling of pgAdmin(in the current > way) is hurting the 3rd party community. > > All that would be needed is a installer section at the end saying > something like: > In addition to pgAdmin III there are other opensource and commercial > admin products available, you can get more information here <link back > to postgresql home page>. > > I don't see that as being detrimental to anyone and would certainly be > in fair play. > > -- > Tony Caduto > AM Software Design > Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql > http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
I can't agree more. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us] Sent: Wednesday, 25 January 2006 15:16 To: Tony Caduto Cc: Magnus Hagander; Dave Page; pgsql-general@postgresql.org Subject: Re: Does this look ethical to you? The people who develop, package, and host pginstaller files are doing so to promote open source software for users, not to help you sell commercial software. For that, you are on your own. If you want to find volunteers to help you promote and sell your software, good luck. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony Caduto wrote: > Magnus Hagander wrote: > > We (pginstaller hat goes on) don't know of any competing products. We > > will be happy to consider bundling any competing product, including PG > > Lightning Admin. One of the most important things in order to be > > distributed as part of an open source product is that the parts are open > > source. If PGLA (or a lite version if necessary) is available under an > > OSS license, we'll definitly consider bundling it. > > (We have considered bundling phpPgAdmin, but haven't found a good way to > > do it without dragging in a huge load of dependencies) > > I don't wan't to be bundled, I just want it to be known that there are > alternatives available. > > Postgresql is free, so what is the big deal about letting users know > about alternative admin tools comercial or open source? It's not like > it would put pgAdmin or Postgresql out of business(it could only help). > > It's a shame you don't see how the bundling of pgAdmin(in the current > way) is hurting the 3rd party community. > > All that would be needed is a installer section at the end saying > something like: > In addition to pgAdmin III there are other opensource and commercial > admin products available, you can get more information here <link back > to postgresql home page>. > > I don't see that as being detrimental to anyone and would certainly be > in fair play. > > -- > Tony Caduto > AM Software Design > Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql > http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
Andrew Maclean napisał(a): >I can't agree more. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us] >Sent: Wednesday, 25 January 2006 15:16 >To: Tony Caduto >Cc: Magnus Hagander; Dave Page; pgsql-general@postgresql.org >Subject: Re: Does this look ethical to you? > > >The people who develop, package, and host pginstaller files are doing so >to promote open source software for users, not to help you sell >commercial software. For that, you are on your own. > >If you want to find volunteers to help you promote and sell your >software, good luck. :-) > > > Maybe Tony plans to donate part of the incomging back to the PostgreSQL project :-) Sergiusz