Обсуждение: postgresql rising

I have seen a steady progressive rise in the number of postgresql
related jobs and the quality of those jobs.   Major companies are
apparently rolling out critical infrastructure on postgresql...Vonage
is one example:

(http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=47975237&AVSDM=2006%2D09%2D15+13%3A07%3A10&Logo=1&JobTitle=PostgreSQL+Databa%2E%2E%2E&q=postgresql&cy=us&JSNONREG=1&Image1.x=0&Image1.y=0&dcjvlid=380).
Salaries for a capable pg dba are really attractive, I have seen
several in the 6 figure range.  If you are reading this list and you
like making money, this is amazing news folks.  I am seeing a
confluence of many factors leading to serious penetration into the
enterprise market.

Around 5 years ago after being mostly a c/c++ developer I decided
postgresql was where it was at.  Learning the database and becoming
productive with it has been professionally rewarding on many levels.
It's really exciting watching the community evolve.

merlin

On Sep 19, 2006, at 23:57 , Merlin Moncure wrote:

> I have seen a steady progressive rise in the number of postgresql
> related jobs and the quality of those jobs.   Major companies are
> apparently rolling out critical infrastructure on postgresql...Vonage
> is one example:
> (http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=47975237&AVSDM=2006%
> 2D09%2D15+13%3A07%3A10&Logo=1&JobTitle=PostgreSQL+Databa%2E%2E%
> 2E&q=postgresql&cy=us&JSNONREG=1&Image1.x=0&Image1.y=0&dcjvlid=380).
> Salaries for a capable pg dba are really attractive, I have seen
> several in the 6 figure range.  If you are reading this list and you
> like making money, this is amazing news folks.  I am seeing a
> confluence of many factors leading to serious penetration into the
> enterprise market.
>
> Around 5 years ago after being mostly a c/c++ developer I decided
> postgresql was where it was at.  Learning the database and becoming
> productive with it has been professionally rewarding on many levels.
> It's really exciting watching the community evolve.

I have noticed the same. One thing you didn't mention is how
postgresql gets into such companies. I highly doubt there is a new
general managerial acceptance of postgresql itself- I haven't had any
of my management mention it from management magazines- rather it
seems to be a grassroots effort by developers who started out using a
free LAMP stack, know the benefits, and then bring that experience to
the workplace.

-M

Merlin Moncure wrote:
> I have seen a steady progressive rise in the number of postgresql
> related jobs and the quality of those jobs.   Major companies are
> apparently rolling out critical infrastructure on postgresql...Vonage
> is one example:
>
That is good news, I wish there where some of those Postgresql jobs in
the Milwaukee area :-)
Don't want to move to NJ :-(

It does seem to be a grass roots kind of thing as the major corp
managers have no clue what Postgresql is.
For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
they need :-)

--
Tony Caduto
AM Software Design
http://www.amsoftwaredesign.com
Home of PG Lightning Admin for Postgresql
Your best bet for Postgresql Administration

On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 09:05:00AM -0400, AgentM wrote:
> On Sep 19, 2006, at 23:57 , Merlin Moncure wrote:
>
> >I have seen a steady progressive rise in the number of postgresql
> >related jobs and the quality of those jobs.   Major companies are
> >apparently rolling out critical infrastructure on postgresql
>
> I have noticed the same.  One thing you didn't mention is how
> postgresql gets into such companies.  I highly doubt there is a new
> general managerial acceptance of postgresql itself- I haven't had
> any  of my management mention it from management magazines- rather
> it  seems to be a grassroots effort by developers who started out
> using a  free LAMP stack, know the benefits, and then bring that
> experience to  the workplace.

That's one stage, and I thing we're getting past it.  Now, management
is enthusiastic to have FOSS OSs like Linux and FreeBSD as server OSs,
and they're coming around, company by company, to the idea that this
FOSS stuff applies to server software in general.

Even in client-side software, people don't look at you as though
you're insane when you say you're using Firefox or OOo :)

Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter <david@fetter.org> http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 415 235 3778        AIM: dfetter666
                              Skype: davidfetter

Remember to vote!

On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:10:56AM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
> Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
> they need :-)

I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate
something is on the basis of reputation.  PostgreSQL is building its
reputation, but it doesn't have the marketing budget of those three.
Therefore, it's safer to pick the thing that has a better reputation,
and that makes those reputations stronger still.  So what we need is
a spotless reputation -- which we're building.

A

--
Andrew Sullivan  | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
The whole tendency of modern prose is away from concreteness.
        --George Orwell

> On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:10:56AM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
>> For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
>> Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
>> they need :-)
>
> I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
> management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate
> something is on the basis of reputation.

I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the management
hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate something is on
the basis of....

- if there is someone they can sue.
- how attractive the sales rep is.
- how much swag the sales rep brings with them.

:-/

Sadly, I once worked for a company that spent close to $500K on a
commercial product when PHP would have worked just as well...  I did make
sure I wrote a very very long CYA email myself so when someone asked why
that decision was made they wouldn't look at me :)

> PostgreSQL is building its
> reputation, but it doesn't have the marketing budget of those three.
> Therefore, it's safer to pick the thing that has a better reputation,
> and that makes those reputations stronger still.  So what we need is
> a spotless reputation -- which we're building.
>
> A
>
> --
> Andrew Sullivan  | ajs@crankycanuck.ca
> The whole tendency of modern prose is away from concreteness.
>         --George Orwell
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
>
>               http://archives.postgresql.org
>

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On 09/20/06 16:38, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
[snip]
> I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
> management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to
> evaluate something is on the basis of....
>
> - if there is someone they can sue.
> - how attractive the sales rep is.

Back in my youth, working for the family business (roofing/siding
distributor, not many women, fewer attractive women), the most
successful salespeople were always... young attractive women.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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Ron Johnson wrote:

> On 09/20/06 16:38, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
> [snip]
> > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
> > management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to
> > evaluate something is on the basis of....
> >
> > - if there is someone they can sue.
> > - how attractive the sales rep is.
>
> Back in my youth, working for the family business (roofing/siding
> distributor, not many women, fewer attractive women), the most
> successful salespeople were always... young attractive women.

Pheromones sell.

I wonder if we could replace the elephant logo with a female elephant
logo.  That could work wonders ... among the elephant community at
least.  Are there many elephants among decision makers?

--
Alvaro Herrera                                http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

PostgreSQL doesn't have any booth babes? ;P

csn

> On 09/20/06 16:38, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
> [snip]
> > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
> > management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to
> > evaluate something is on the basis of....
> >
> > - if there is someone they can sue.
> > - how attractive the sales rep is.
>
> Back in my youth, working for the family business (roofing/siding
> distributor, not many women, fewer attractive women), the most
> successful salespeople were always... young attractive women.


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On 9/21/06, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:
> I wonder if we could replace the elephant logo with a female elephant
> logo.  That could work wonders ... among the elephant community at
> least.  Are there many elephants among decision makers?

our elephant isn't female?  that changes everything.

merlin

On 21/9/2006 9:39, "Alvaro Herrera" <alvherre@commandprompt.com> wrote:

> I wonder if we could replace the elephant logo with a female elephant
> logo.  That could work wonders ... among the elephant community at
> least.  Are there many elephants among decision makers?

Aren't they all elephants?

Oh hang on ... I might be thinking of dinosaurs ;-)


--

Shane Ambler
Postgres@007Marketing.com

Get Sheeky @ http://Sheeky.Biz

On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 16:38 -0500, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:10:56AM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> >> For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
> >> Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
> >> they need :-)
> >
> > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
> > management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate
> > something is on the basis of reputation.
>
> I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the management
> hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate something is on
> the basis of....
>
> - if there is someone they can sue.

Good luck attempting to sue Microsoft, Oracle or IBM for deficiencies in
their database products.

Brad.

In response to Brad Nicholson <bnichols@ca.afilias.info>:

> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 16:38 -0500, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
> > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:10:56AM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> > >> For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
> > >> Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
> > >> they need :-)
> > >
> > > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
> > > management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate
> > > something is on the basis of reputation.
> >
> > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the management
> > hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate something is on
> > the basis of....
> >
> > - if there is someone they can sue.
>
> Good luck attempting to sue Microsoft, Oracle or IBM for deficiencies in
> their database products.

Suing someone is not the real reason.  It's the excuse given to one's
boss.  The real reason is the "Nobody ever got fired for using IBM"
mentality.  If you use something that your superiors recognize as the
industry leader and it doesn't work out, who would blame you?

It's CYA.  And it's wimpy.

--
Bill Moran
Collaborative Fusion Inc.

>>>> they need :-)
>>> I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
>>> management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate
>>> something is on the basis of reputation.
>> I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the management
>> hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate something is on
>> the basis of....
>>
>> - if there is someone they can sue.
>
> Good luck attempting to sue Microsoft, Oracle or IBM for deficiencies in
> their database products.

Well actually you can't sue either via the licenses. However, that is
not where large corps find the comfort. The comfort comes from the fact
that IBM, Oracle and MS will defend *you* if you are sued for ip
violation per the use of their product (e.g; oracle is violating a
patent and you get sued for using oracle).

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake



>
> Brad.
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
>        choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
>        match
>


--

    === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
    Providing the most comprehensive  PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
              http://www.commandprompt.com/

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On 09/21/06 09:28, Bill Moran wrote:
> In response to Brad Nicholson <bnichols@ca.afilias.info>:
>
>> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 16:38 -0500, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:10:56AM -0500, Tony Caduto
>>>> wrote:
[snip]
> Suing someone is not the real reason.  It's the excuse given to
> one's boss.  The real reason is the "Nobody ever got fired for
> using IBM" mentality.  If you use something that your superiors
> recognize as the industry leader and it doesn't work out, who
> would blame you?
>
> It's CYA.  And it's wimpy.

It's a pack/herd mentality that serves the species very well, most
of the time.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

Is "common sense" really valid?
For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
are mud people.
However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
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On Thu, 2006-09-21 at 08:47, Brad Nicholson wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 16:38 -0500, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
> > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:10:56AM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> > >> For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
> > >> Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
> > >> they need :-)
> > >
> > > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
> > > management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate
> > > something is on the basis of reputation.
> >
> > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the management
> > hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate something is on
> > the basis of....
> >
> > - if there is someone they can sue.
>
> Good luck attempting to sue Microsoft, Oracle or IBM for deficiencies in
> their database products.

I had a boss once who panned PostgreSQL because he wanted a company to
be able to blame if things went wrong.  I asked him if it wasn't more
important to worry about preventing things from going wrong in the first
place.  I got a rather blank stare for a while.  No answer.

>> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 16:38 -0500, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:10:56AM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
>>>>> For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
>>>>> Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
>>>>> they need :-)
>>>>
>>>> I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
>>>> management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate
>>>> something is on the basis of reputation.
>>>
>>> I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the management
>>> hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate something is on
>>> the basis of....
>>>
>>> - if there is someone they can sue.
>>
>> Good luck attempting to sue Microsoft, Oracle or IBM for deficiencies in
>> their database products.
>
> Suing someone is not the real reason.  It's the excuse given to one's
> boss.  The real reason is the "Nobody ever got fired for using IBM"
> mentality.  If you use something that your superiors recognize as the
> industry leader and it doesn't work out, who would blame you?
>
> It's CYA.  And it's wimpy.

Yep.  That's exactly it!

Here's a feel good story for you...

A couple of companies ago where we were small and I got to make the
decisions, we decided to build our app on FreeBSD/PHP/PostgreSQL.  And all
was well, since we were small and people trusted me.  Then we got bought
out by a big company.  The first thing they wanted us to do was rewrite
for Linux/Java/Oracle. Then one of the sales guys wanted us to add
SQLServer support cause it would look good on the feature sheet. Note that
99% of the time this was a hosted solution.  I left about a year ago and
just recently learned that for one of their new products (deployable not
hosted) they were going with PostgreSQL  :-)

-philip

After takin a swig o' Arrakan spice grog, bnichols@ca.afilias.info (Brad Nicholson) belched out:
> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 16:38 -0500, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
>> > On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:10:56AM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
>> >> For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
>> >> Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
>> >> they need :-)
>> >
>> > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
>> > management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate
>> > something is on the basis of reputation.
>>
>> I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the management
>> hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate something is on
>> the basis of....
>>
>> - if there is someone they can sue.
>
> Good luck attempting to sue Microsoft, Oracle or IBM for deficiencies in
> their database products.

Ah, but there *is* a value in this, as, if you buy licenses from these
companies, they become anodynes to attract infringement lawsuits of
one sort or another.

If it were to turn out, for instance, that PostgreSQL were found to be
using a patented algorithm that someone wanted to sue people about,
that is fairly certain to hit users.

In contrast, if a similar infringement were found with one of the
products of, say, IBM, you might discover that you got some value for
money out of those licensing fees in that the only folks sued are
likely to be IBM...

That's not an event we expect to see happen terribly frequently, but
it's of non-zero value...
--
(reverse (concatenate 'string "moc.liamg" "@" "enworbbc"))
http://linuxdatabases.info/info/linuxdistributions.html
"It's difficult  to extract sense  from strings, but they're  the only
communication coin we can count on." -- Alan Perlis

On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 10:10 -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> Merlin Moncure wrote:
> > I have seen a steady progressive rise in the number of postgresql
> > related jobs and the quality of those jobs.   Major companies are
> > apparently rolling out critical infrastructure on postgresql...Vonage
> > is one example:
> >
> That is good news, I wish there where some of those Postgresql jobs in
> the Milwaukee area :-)
> Don't want to move to NJ :-(
>
> It does seem to be a grass roots kind of thing as the major corp
> managers have no clue what Postgresql is.
> For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
> Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
> they need :-)

Hmmm...
I'm broke.

I'd be happy to wrap a sexy, colorful, pointy-clicky installer around
postgreSQL and then market the whole package to the corporate world with
5 and 6 figure annual site deployment fees. I'll even funnel half back
into core devel.
It wouldn't even be the exploitation of profound stupidity, it would be
catering to the needs and desires of the corporate customer.

It's not about the product, it's about the marketing. Look what MS has
done with the often Alpha Dung they produce. Imagine that machinery
behind a sound and superior product. Boggles the mind, dunnit?

I wonder if the Advocacy crowd have thought about an outright sale of
marketing rights....

Andy

On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 10:48:47AM -0500, Scott Marlowe wrote:
> On Thu, 2006-09-21 at 08:47, Brad Nicholson wrote:
> > On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 16:38 -0500, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 10:10:56AM -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> > > >> For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
> > > >> Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
> > > >> they need :-)
> > > >
> > > > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
> > > > management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate
> > > > something is on the basis of reputation.
> > >
> > > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the management
> > > hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to evaluate something is on
> > > the basis of....
> > >
> > > - if there is someone they can sue.
> >
> > Good luck attempting to sue Microsoft, Oracle or IBM for deficiencies in
> > their database products.
>
> I had a boss once who panned PostgreSQL because he wanted a company to
> be able to blame if things went wrong.  I asked him if it wasn't more
> important to worry about preventing things from going wrong in the first
> place.  I got a rather blank stare for a while.  No answer.

And now-a-days, there's at least 2 US companies you can pay for the
right to blame when something goes wrong.
--
Jim Nasby                                            jim@nasby.net
EnterpriseDB      http://enterprisedb.com      512.569.9461 (cell)

On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 05:30:59PM -0700, CSN wrote:
> PostgreSQL doesn't have any booth babes? ;P

Berkus doesn't count??! He's got long hair! What more do you want?!

:P

> csn
>
> > On 09/20/06 16:38, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > I think that description is false.  At a certain point in the
> > > management hierarchy, the only way anyone has the ability to
> > > evaluate something is on the basis of....
> > >
> > > - if there is someone they can sue.
> > > - how attractive the sales rep is.
> >
> > Back in my youth, working for the family business (roofing/siding
> > distributor, not many women, fewer attractive women), the most
> > successful salespeople were always... young attractive women.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>

--
Jim Nasby                                            jim@nasby.net
EnterpriseDB      http://enterprisedb.com      512.569.9461 (cell)

On Fri, Sep 22, 2006 at 11:14:06AM +0200, Andrew Kelly wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 10:10 -0500, Tony Caduto wrote:
> > Merlin Moncure wrote:
> > > I have seen a steady progressive rise in the number of postgresql
> > > related jobs and the quality of those jobs.   Major companies are
> > > apparently rolling out critical infrastructure on postgresql...Vonage
> > > is one example:
> > >
> > That is good news, I wish there where some of those Postgresql jobs in
> > the Milwaukee area :-)
> > Don't want to move to NJ :-(
> >
> > It does seem to be a grass roots kind of thing as the major corp
> > managers have no clue what Postgresql is.
> > For a high level corp manager all they ever hear about is MS SQL Server,
> > Oracle and DB2, and the more it costs the more they think it is what
> > they need :-)
>
> Hmmm...
> I'm broke.
>
> I'd be happy to wrap a sexy, colorful, pointy-clicky installer around
> postgreSQL and then market the whole package to the corporate world with
> 5 and 6 figure annual site deployment fees. I'll even funnel half back
> into core devel.
> It wouldn't even be the exploitation of profound stupidity, it would be
> catering to the needs and desires of the corporate customer.

So why don't you?
--
Jim Nasby                                            jim@nasby.net
EnterpriseDB      http://enterprisedb.com      512.569.9461 (cell)

> Berkus doesn't count??! He's got long hair! What more do you want?!

banjos playing in background...


--
Scott Ribe
scott_ribe@killerbytes.com
http://www.killerbytes.com/
(303) 722-0567 voice

On Sep 21, 2006, at 10:27 PM, Christopher Browne wrote:

> In contrast, if a similar infringement were found with one of the
> products of, say, IBM, you might discover that you got some value for
> money out of those licensing fees in that the only folks sued are
> likely to be IBM...

That assumes their license indemnifies you of such liability.  But
you could be sued anyhow, and would then have to claim against that
indemnification.  I find this to be a mostly false argument.

On Sep 22, 2006, at 1:03 PM, Jim C. Nasby wrote:

> Berkus doesn't count??! He's got long hair! What more do you want?!

Well, then based on volume he should count as two :-)

No offense intended, Josh... *I'd* count as two, too.

  Ron Johnson wrote:

>It's a pack/herd mentality that serves the species very well, most
>of the time.
>
>
>

Odd that you should state that, in light of your signature tag line.

>- --
>Ron Johnson, Jr.
>Jefferson LA  USA
>
>Is "common sense" really valid?
>For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that
>whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins
>are mud people.
>However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong.
>
>

On Sep 22, 2006, at 3:33 PM, Vivek Khera wrote:
> On Sep 22, 2006, at 1:03 PM, Jim C. Nasby wrote:
>> Berkus doesn't count??! He's got long hair! What more do you want?!
>
> Well, then based on volume he should count as two :-)
>
> No offense intended, Josh... *I'd* count as two, too.

Nah, Josh ain't that loud.

Just be glad that my volume control isn't stuck on high. :) There's a
good reason my nickname is Decibel!
--
Jim Nasby                                            jim@nasby.net
EnterpriseDB      http://enterprisedb.com      512.569.9461 (cell)