Обсуждение: Unable to match same value in field.

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Unable to match same value in field.

От
Condor
Дата:
Hello,

I using postgresql 9.5.1 and I have problem to match value in one field.
Both tables are text:

=# \d list_cards_tbl;

   Column   |  Type   |                          Modifiers
-----------+---------+--------------------------------------------------------------
  recid     | integer | not null default
nextval('list_cards_tbl_recid_seq'::regclass)
  imsi      | text    |
Indexes:
     "imsi_list_cards_tbl" btree (imsi)


=# \d list_newcard_tbl;
    Column   |  Type   |                           Modifiers
------------+---------+---------------------------------------------------------------
  recid      | integer | not null default
nextval('list_newcard_tbl_recid_seq'::regclass)
  serial     | text    |
  imsi       | text    |
Indexes:
     "list_newcard_tbl_pkey" PRIMARY KEY, btree (recid)
     "list_newcard_ser_idx" btree (serial)



=# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_newcards_tbl where
imsi = '284110000123315';
       imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
-----------------+----------------------------------+------------
  284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
(1 row)



So far so good, value of table list_newcard_tbl is fine, problem is in
table list_cards_tbl

=# select imsi from list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
  imsi
------
(0 rows)

No value, lets change to LIKE

=# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
imsi like '284110000123315%';
       imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
-----------------+----------------------------------+------------
  284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
(1 row)


Both have the same MD5 sum, also bit length.

With EXPLAIN:

=# explain analyse select imsi from list_cards_tbl where imsi =
'284110000123315';
                                                               QUERY PLAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Index Only Scan using imsi_list_card_tbl on list_cards_tbl
(cost=0.28..4.30 rows=1 width=16) (actual time=0.021..0.021 rows=0
loops=1)
    Index Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
    Heap Fetches: 0
  Planning time: 0.080 ms
  Execution time: 0.045 ms
(5 rows)

I see only index scan, so I do:

=# reindex table list_cards_tbl;
REINDEX
=# vacuum list_cards_tbl;
VACUUM
=# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
imsi = '284110000123315';
  imsi | md5 | bit_length
------+-----+------------
(0 rows)


Still cant find value.

Some settings:

  enable_bitmapscan                   | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of bitmap-scan plans.
  enable_hashagg                      | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of hashed aggregation
plans.
  enable_hashjoin                     | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of hash join plans.
  enable_indexonlyscan                | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of index-only-scan
plans.
  enable_indexscan                    | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of index-scan plans.
  enable_material                     | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of materialization.
  enable_mergejoin                    | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of merge join plans.
  enable_nestloop                     | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of nested-loop join
plans.
  enable_seqscan                      | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of sequential-scan
plans.
  enable_sort                         | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of explicit sort steps.
  enable_tidscan                      | on
                      | Enables the planner's use of TID scan plans.
  client_encoding                     | UTF8
                      | Sets the client's character set encoding.
  lc_collate                          | bg_BG.utf8
                      | Shows the collation order locale.
  lc_ctype                            | bg_BG.utf8
                      | Shows the character classification and case
conversion locale.
  lc_messages                         | bg_BG.utf8
                      | Sets the language in which messages are
displayed.
  lc_monetary                         | bg_BG.utf8
                      | Sets the locale for formatting monetary amounts.
  lc_numeric                          | bg_BG.utf8
                      | Sets the locale for formatting numbers.
  lc_time                             | bg_BG.utf8
                      | Sets the locale for formatting date and time
values.
  server_encoding                     | UTF8
                      | Sets the server (database) character set
encoding.
  server_version                      | 9.5.1
                      | Shows the server version.
  server_version_num                  | 90501
                      | Shows the server version as an integer.



Can some one point me what can be the problem with this value and how to
resolve it ? I think probably index problem but I reindex that table and
problem is not resolved or some broken utf8 char but md5 and bit_length
should not to be equal.


Regards,
HS


Re: Unable to match same value in field.

От
Karsten Hilbert
Дата:
On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 11:09:00AM +0200, Condor wrote:

> Can some one point me what can be the problem with this value and how to
> resolve it ? I think probably index problem but I reindex that table and
> problem is not resolved

For the fun of it try dropping all indexes on the table and
rerun the query.

Karsten
--
GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net
E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD  4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346


Re: Unable to match same value in field.

От
Adrian Klaver
Дата:
On 03/10/2016 01:09 AM, Condor wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I using postgresql 9.5.1 and I have problem to match value in one field.
> Both tables are text:
>
> =# \d list_cards_tbl;
>
>    Column   |  Type   |                          Modifiers
> -----------+---------+--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   recid     | integer | not null default
> nextval('list_cards_tbl_recid_seq'::regclass)
>   imsi      | text    |
> Indexes:
>      "imsi_list_cards_tbl" btree (imsi)
>
>
> =# \d list_newcard_tbl;
>     Column   |  Type   |                           Modifiers
> ------------+---------+---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   recid      | integer | not null default
> nextval('list_newcard_tbl_recid_seq'::regclass)
>   serial     | text    |
>   imsi       | text    |
> Indexes:
>      "list_newcard_tbl_pkey" PRIMARY KEY, btree (recid)
>      "list_newcard_ser_idx" btree (serial)
>
>
>
> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_newcards_tbl where
> imsi = '284110000123315';
>        imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
> -----------------+----------------------------------+------------
>   284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
> (1 row)
>
>
>
> So far so good, value of table list_newcard_tbl is fine, problem is in
> table list_cards_tbl
>
> =# select imsi from list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
>   imsi
> ------
> (0 rows)
>
> No value, lets change to LIKE
>
> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
> imsi like '284110000123315%';
>        imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
> -----------------+----------------------------------+------------
>   284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
> (1 row)
>
>
> Both have the same MD5 sum, also bit length.
>
> With EXPLAIN:
>
> =# explain analyse select imsi from list_cards_tbl where imsi =
> '284110000123315';
>                                                                QUERY PLAN
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   Index Only Scan using imsi_list_card_tbl on list_cards_tbl
> (cost=0.28..4.30 rows=1 width=16) (actual time=0.021..0.021 rows=0 loops=1)
>     Index Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
>     Heap Fetches: 0
>   Planning time: 0.080 ms
>   Execution time: 0.045 ms
> (5 rows)
>
> I see only index scan, so I do:
>
> =# reindex table list_cards_tbl;
> REINDEX
> =# vacuum list_cards_tbl;
> VACUUM
> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
> imsi = '284110000123315';
>   imsi | md5 | bit_length
> ------+-----+------------
> (0 rows)
>
>
> Still cant find value.
>

So is the above the only value that is hidden?

What happens if for a session you do?:

SET enable_indexonlyscan=OFF;

Basically a variation of Karsten's idea

Is the same process populating both tables?

Where is the data coming from?

Lastly, what happens if you populate the field in list_cards_tbl with
the data from list_newcards_tbl?


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com


Re: Unable to match same value in field.

От
Condor
Дата:
On 10-03-2016 15:37, Adrian Klaver wrote:
> On 03/10/2016 01:09 AM, Condor wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I using postgresql 9.5.1 and I have problem to match value in one
>> field.
>> Both tables are text:
>>
>> =# \d list_cards_tbl;
>>
>>    Column   |  Type   |                          Modifiers
>> -----------+---------+--------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>   recid     | integer | not null default
>> nextval('list_cards_tbl_recid_seq'::regclass)
>>   imsi      | text    |
>> Indexes:
>>      "imsi_list_cards_tbl" btree (imsi)
>>
>>
>> =# \d list_newcard_tbl;
>>     Column   |  Type   |                           Modifiers
>> ------------+---------+---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>   recid      | integer | not null default
>> nextval('list_newcard_tbl_recid_seq'::regclass)
>>   serial     | text    |
>>   imsi       | text    |
>> Indexes:
>>      "list_newcard_tbl_pkey" PRIMARY KEY, btree (recid)
>>      "list_newcard_ser_idx" btree (serial)
>>
>>
>>
>> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_newcards_tbl
>> where
>> imsi = '284110000123315';
>>        imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
>> -----------------+----------------------------------+------------
>>   284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
>> (1 row)
>>
>>
>>
>> So far so good, value of table list_newcard_tbl is fine, problem is in
>> table list_cards_tbl
>>
>> =# select imsi from list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
>>   imsi
>> ------
>> (0 rows)
>>
>> No value, lets change to LIKE
>>
>> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
>> imsi like '284110000123315%';
>>        imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
>> -----------------+----------------------------------+------------
>>   284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
>> (1 row)
>>
>>
>> Both have the same MD5 sum, also bit length.
>>
>> With EXPLAIN:
>>
>> =# explain analyse select imsi from list_cards_tbl where imsi =
>> '284110000123315';
>>                                                                QUERY
>> PLAN
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>   Index Only Scan using imsi_list_card_tbl on list_cards_tbl
>> (cost=0.28..4.30 rows=1 width=16) (actual time=0.021..0.021 rows=0
>> loops=1)
>>     Index Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
>>     Heap Fetches: 0
>>   Planning time: 0.080 ms
>>   Execution time: 0.045 ms
>> (5 rows)
>>
>> I see only index scan, so I do:
>>
>> =# reindex table list_cards_tbl;
>> REINDEX
>> =# vacuum list_cards_tbl;
>> VACUUM
>> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
>> imsi = '284110000123315';
>>   imsi | md5 | bit_length
>> ------+-----+------------
>> (0 rows)
>>
>>
>> Still cant find value.
>>
>
> So is the above the only value that is hidden?
>
> What happens if for a session you do?:
>
> SET enable_indexonlyscan=OFF;
>
> Basically a variation of Karsten's idea
>
> Is the same process populating both tables?
>
> Where is the data coming from?
>
> Lastly, what happens if you populate the field in list_cards_tbl with
> the data from list_newcards_tbl?
>
>
> --
> Adrian Klaver
> adrian.klaver@aklaver.com


=# SET enable_indexonlyscan=OFF;
SET
=# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
imsi = '284110000123315';
  imsi | md5 | bit_length
------+-----+------------
(0 rows)


=# explain analyse select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from
list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
                                                            QUERY PLAN

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Index Scan using imsi_list_cards_tbl on list_cards_tbl
(cost=0.28..8.30 rows=1 width=16) (actual time=0.015..0.015 rows=0
loops=1)
    Index Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
  Planning time: 0.106 ms
  Execution time: 0.040 ms
(4 rows)


Same result.

  =# SET enable_indexscan = off;
SET
=# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
imsi = '284110000123315';
  imsi | md5 | bit_length
------+-----+------------
(0 rows)

=# explain analyse select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from
list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
                                                         QUERY PLAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Bitmap Heap Scan on list_cards_tbl  (cost=4.29..8.31 rows=1 width=16)
(actual time=0.016..0.016 rows=0 loops=1)
    Recheck Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
    ->  Bitmap Index Scan on imsi_list_cards_tbl  (cost=0.00..4.29 rows=1
width=0) (actual time=0.015..0.015 rows=0 loops=1)
          Index Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
  Planning time: 0.109 ms
  Execution time: 0.046 ms
(6 rows)


Finally.


=# SET enable_bitmapscan = off
SET
=# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
imsi = '284110000123315';
       imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
-----------------+----------------------------------+------------
  284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
(1 row)

=# explain analyse select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from
list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
                                                QUERY PLAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Seq Scan on list_cards_tbl  (cost=0.00..78.08 rows=1 width=16) (actual
time=0.053..0.502 rows=1 loops=1)
    Filter: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
    Rows Removed by Filter: 2485
  Planning time: 0.127 ms
  Execution time: 0.533 ms
(5 rows)



I will drop index and will create them again but after rebuild I think
if there are mistakes after rebuild they should be fixed ?
Process that populate them isnt the same but data is coming from
database not from user input filed.

Any ideas ?


HS




Re: Unable to match same value in field.

От
Adrian Klaver
Дата:
On 03/11/2016 12:19 AM, Condor wrote:
> On 10-03-2016 15:37, Adrian Klaver wrote:
>> On 03/10/2016 01:09 AM, Condor wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I using postgresql 9.5.1 and I have problem to match value in one field.
>>> Both tables are text:
>>>
>>> =# \d list_cards_tbl;
>>>
>>>    Column   |  Type   |                          Modifiers
>>> -----------+---------+--------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>   recid     | integer | not null default
>>> nextval('list_cards_tbl_recid_seq'::regclass)
>>>   imsi      | text    |
>>> Indexes:
>>>      "imsi_list_cards_tbl" btree (imsi)
>>>
>>>
>>> =# \d list_newcard_tbl;
>>>     Column   |  Type   |                           Modifiers
>>> ------------+---------+---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>   recid      | integer | not null default
>>> nextval('list_newcard_tbl_recid_seq'::regclass)
>>>   serial     | text    |
>>>   imsi       | text    |
>>> Indexes:
>>>      "list_newcard_tbl_pkey" PRIMARY KEY, btree (recid)
>>>      "list_newcard_ser_idx" btree (serial)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_newcards_tbl where
>>> imsi = '284110000123315';
>>>        imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
>>> -----------------+----------------------------------+------------
>>>   284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
>>> (1 row)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So far so good, value of table list_newcard_tbl is fine, problem is in
>>> table list_cards_tbl
>>>
>>> =# select imsi from list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
>>>   imsi
>>> ------
>>> (0 rows)
>>>
>>> No value, lets change to LIKE
>>>
>>> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
>>> imsi like '284110000123315%';
>>>        imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
>>> -----------------+----------------------------------+------------
>>>   284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
>>> (1 row)
>>>
>>>
>>> Both have the same MD5 sum, also bit length.
>>>
>>> With EXPLAIN:
>>>
>>> =# explain analyse select imsi from list_cards_tbl where imsi =
>>> '284110000123315';
>>>                                                                QUERY
>>> PLAN
>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>   Index Only Scan using imsi_list_card_tbl on list_cards_tbl
>>> (cost=0.28..4.30 rows=1 width=16) (actual time=0.021..0.021 rows=0
>>> loops=1)
>>>     Index Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
>>>     Heap Fetches: 0
>>>   Planning time: 0.080 ms
>>>   Execution time: 0.045 ms
>>> (5 rows)
>>>
>>> I see only index scan, so I do:
>>>
>>> =# reindex table list_cards_tbl;
>>> REINDEX
>>> =# vacuum list_cards_tbl;
>>> VACUUM
>>> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
>>> imsi = '284110000123315';
>>>   imsi | md5 | bit_length
>>> ------+-----+------------
>>> (0 rows)
>>>
>>>
>>> Still cant find value.
>>>
>>
>> So is the above the only value that is hidden?
>>
>> What happens if for a session you do?:
>>
>> SET enable_indexonlyscan=OFF;
>>
>> Basically a variation of Karsten's idea
>>
>> Is the same process populating both tables?
>>
>> Where is the data coming from?
>>
>> Lastly, what happens if you populate the field in list_cards_tbl with
>> the data from list_newcards_tbl?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Adrian Klaver
>> adrian.klaver@aklaver.com
>
>
> =# SET enable_indexonlyscan=OFF;
> SET
> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
> imsi = '284110000123315';
>   imsi | md5 | bit_length
> ------+-----+------------
> (0 rows)
>
>
> =# explain analyse select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from
> list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
>                                                             QUERY PLAN
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   Index Scan using imsi_list_cards_tbl on list_cards_tbl
> (cost=0.28..8.30 rows=1 width=16) (actual time=0.015..0.015 rows=0 loops=1)
>     Index Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
>   Planning time: 0.106 ms
>   Execution time: 0.040 ms
> (4 rows)
>
>
> Same result.
>
>   =# SET enable_indexscan = off;
> SET
> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
> imsi = '284110000123315';
>   imsi | md5 | bit_length
> ------+-----+------------
> (0 rows)
>
> =# explain analyse select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from
> list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
>                                                          QUERY PLAN
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   Bitmap Heap Scan on list_cards_tbl  (cost=4.29..8.31 rows=1 width=16)
> (actual time=0.016..0.016 rows=0 loops=1)
>     Recheck Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
>     ->  Bitmap Index Scan on imsi_list_cards_tbl  (cost=0.00..4.29
> rows=1 width=0) (actual time=0.015..0.015 rows=0 loops=1)
>           Index Cond: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
>   Planning time: 0.109 ms
>   Execution time: 0.046 ms
> (6 rows)
>
>
> Finally.
>
>
> =# SET enable_bitmapscan = off
> SET
> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where
> imsi = '284110000123315';
>        imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
> -----------------+----------------------------------+------------
>   284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
> (1 row)
>
> =# explain analyse select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from
> list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
>                                                 QUERY PLAN
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   Seq Scan on list_cards_tbl  (cost=0.00..78.08 rows=1 width=16) (actual
> time=0.053..0.502 rows=1 loops=1)
>     Filter: (imsi = '284110000123315'::text)
>     Rows Removed by Filter: 2485
>   Planning time: 0.127 ms
>   Execution time: 0.533 ms
> (5 rows)
>
>
>
> I will drop index and will create them again but after rebuild I think
> if there are mistakes after rebuild they should be fixed ?

Yes that seems to be confirmed here:
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.5/interactive/sql-reindex.html
"REINDEX is similar to a drop and recreate of the index in that the
index contents are rebuilt from scratch. ... "

> Process that populate them isnt the same but data is coming from
> database not from user input filed.
>
> Any ideas ?

Not at the moment, but some unanswered questions:

Is '284110000123315' the only value you are having issues with?

What happens if you populate the field in list_cards_tbl with
the data from list_newcards_tbl?

>
>
> HS
>
>
>


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com


Re: Unable to match same value in field.

От
Adrian Klaver
Дата:
On 03/12/2016 08:11 AM, Condor wrote:
Ccing list

>>>> On 03/10/2016 01:09 AM, Condor wrote:

>>
>>> Process that populate them isnt the same but data is coming from
>>> database not from user input filed.
>>>
>>> Any ideas ?
>>
>> Not at the moment, but some unanswered questions:
>>
>> Is '284110000123315' the only value you are having issues with?
>
> Yes, I now make some tests, it's seems that is the only value that make
> troubles.
>
>>
>> What happens if you populate the field in list_cards_tbl with
>> the data from list_newcards_tbl?
>>
>
> Everything is work. I update value with '284110000123315' manual (I just
> select value with like and update it) and then rerun query and server
> now found that data.
> Yes, I can do that in first moment but was very strange for me why after
> rebuild value still cant be find when md5 and bit_length prove that is
> the same string.

I do not know, that is why I Cced list, maybe someone else has an idea.

>
> Any way, problem solved.
>
> HS
>
>
>
>


--
Adrian Klaver
adrian.klaver@aklaver.com


Re: Unable to match same value in field.

От
"Peter J. Holzer"
Дата:
On 2016-03-10 11:09:00 +0200, Condor wrote:
> I using postgresql 9.5.1 and I have problem to match value in one field.
> Both tables are text:
[...]
> =# select imsi from list_cards_tbl where imsi = '284110000123315';
>  imsi
> ------
> (0 rows)
>
> No value, lets change to LIKE
>
> =# select imsi, md5(imsi), bit_length(imsi) from list_cards_tbl where imsi
> like '284110000123315%';
>       imsi       |               md5                | bit_length
> -----------------+----------------------------------+------------
>  284110000123315 | b438e984c97483bb942eaaed5c0147f3 |        120
> (1 row)

That looks familiar. I think I've seen something similar recently. That
was on 9.5beta1 (I haven't gotten around to upgrade to 9.5.1 yet).

> =# reindex table list_cards_tbl;
> REINDEX
[...]
> Still cant find value.

Dropping and recreating the index helped in my case. Still, I find it
worrying if a value which obviously is in the table can't be found using
the index.

        hp

--
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | I want to forget all about both belts and
|_|_) |                    | suspenders; instead, I want to buy pants
| |   | hjp@hjp.at         | that actually fit.
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |   -- http://noncombatant.org/

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