Обсуждение: SAPDB Open Souce
Slashdot just announced that SAP has released the souce for SAP DB under GPL. Not sure what this mean, or what people think, but I thought the hackers list might want to know. http://slashdot.org/developers/01/04/28/016220.shtml http://www.sap.com/solutions/technology/sapdb/develop/dev_sources.htm Matt
Hi guys, I've used the open source SAPDB and the performance is pretty damned impressive. However, 'open source' in application to it is somewhat deceptive, since you have to make it with SAP's proprietary build tools/environment. In my opinion, however, it would be worth closely auditing SAP DB to see what postgres can learn. Gavin On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Matthew wrote: > Slashdot just announced that SAP has released the souce for SAP DB under > GPL. Not sure what this mean, or what people think, but I thought the > hackers list might want to know. > > http://slashdot.org/developers/01/04/28/016220.shtml > > http://www.sap.com/solutions/technology/sapdb/develop/dev_sources.htm > > Matt > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? > > http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl >
> Hi guys, > > I've used the open source SAPDB and the performance is pretty damned > impressive. However, 'open source' in application to it is somewhat > deceptive, since you have to make it with SAP's proprietary build > tools/environment. > > In my opinion, however, it would be worth closely auditing SAP DB to see > what postgres can learn. I downloaded it. The directories are two characters in length, the files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need I say more. :-) -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> I downloaded it. The directories are two characters in length, the > files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need > I say more. :-) 1.) What is wrong with a mixture of C++, Python and Pascal? Nothing IMHO. 2.) The directory structure is probably the consequence of the development tools (produced automatically). Such a structure can have advantages, too. 3.) I left Germany 6 years ago. I don't know what happened in the meantime, but at that time (and the past 10 years before that) virtually any major business and the majority of large hospitals were running on SAP. AFAIK, similar in other european countries. Complaints about the horrendous price structure (par with Oracle) - yes. Complaints about crappy user interfaces - yes. Complaints about arrogant support team - yes. But *no* complaints regarding data integrity, robustness, and almost no complaints regarding performance. Therefore, I think it should not be disregarded too quickly. There is certainly something to learn from it by studying it; that would be probably more productive than using the same time just thinking about own design. (Maybe start looking at their developer manuals, which are *really* helpful if you want to develop something with SAP). I can't help it (as much as I admire Postgres, and as much as I like using it), but I always perceive a certain air of arrogance blowing from this list - a feeling I don't get from other open source projects. I might be wrong here. Regards, Horst
> I downloaded it. The directories are two characters in length, the > files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need > I say more. :-) Yes! You, or better someone who knows SAP DB could tell if it's "probably the most complete free database system available right now, with much more features than interbase, mysql or postgresql" as this guy Hemos says on Slashdot. I remember the same being said about Interbase when it was OSS'ed, but I still stick to PostgreSQL. But knowledge doesn't hurt, and as someone pointed out, you can't tell the quality of the software from the names of your source code. But it sure makes it a lot more difficult to understand what's going on, I'll grant you that :-) -- Kaare Rasmussen --Linux, spil,-- Tlf: 3816 2582 Kaki Data tshirts, merchandize Fax: 3816 2501 Howitzvej 75 Åben 14.00-18.00 Email: kar@webline.dk 2000 Frederiksberg Lørdag 11.00-17.00 Web: www.suse.dk
Bruce Momjian wrote: > > I downloaded it. The directories are two characters in length, the > files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need > I say more. :-) OK, I'll bite: you need to say more. What is it like at handling transactions? What sort of full-text indexing does it have? Can I have transactions within transactions? What sort of tools are available for managing database extents? How compliant is it with the various SQL standards? How does performance compare with PostgreSQL and others? Does it have an extensible type system? Does it have an 'internal' language to compare with PL/SQL or PL/PGSQL? How well does it scale on SMP systems? Can I perform a single query across multiple databases? What performance monitoring tools does it come with? Hell, in a statement like that you don't even indicate if those directories are so-named within the source code, or in an installed data environment. Whichever environment they do apply to, however, I'm sure there are good systems in place for dealing with them. And of course C++, Python and Pascal are all languages with plenty of proponents, so there's no problem with those. Your statement is so light on utility that it persuades me to download it for myself and try it - but that is presumably exactly the effect you were after, wasn't it? Regards, Andrew. -- _____________________________________________________________________ Andrew McMillan, e-mail: Andrew@catalyst.net.nz Catalyst IT Ltd, PO Box 10-225, Level 22, 105 The Terrace, Wellington Me: +64(21)635-694, Fax: +64(4)499-5596, Office: +64(4)499-2267xtn709
> Bruce Momjian wrote: > > I downloaded it. The directories are > two characters in length, the > files are numbers, and it is a > mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need > I say more. :-) > > OK, I'll bite: you need to say more. > > What is it like at handling transactions? What sort of full-text > indexing does it have? Can I have transactions within transactions? > What sort of tools are available for managing database extents? > How compliant is it with the various SQL standards? How does > performance compare with PostgreSQL and others? Does it have > an extensible type system? Does it have an 'internal' language > to compare with PL/SQL or PL/PGSQL? How well does it scale on > SMP systems? Can I perform a single query across multiple > databases? What performance monitoring tools does it come with? > > Hell, in a statement like that you don't even indicate if those > directories are so-named within the source code, or in an > installed data environment. Whichever environment they do apply > to, however, I'm sure there are good systems in place for dealing > with them. And of course C++, Python and Pascal are all languages > with plenty of proponents, so there's no problem with those. > > Your statement is so light on utility that it persuades me to > download it for myself and try it - but that is presumably > exactly the effect you were after, wasn't it? OK, basically, I couldn't figure out any of it. I am sure there are useful things in there, but I can't figure out how to find any of them. Hopefully others will be better at it than I am. And yes, it would be good for people to look over the code and see if they can find valuable things in it. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
> You, or better someone who knows SAP DB could tell if it's "probably the most > complete free database system available right now, with much more features > than interbase, mysql or postgresql" as this guy Hemos says on Slashdot. > > I remember the same being said about Interbase when it was OSS'ed, but I > still stick to PostgreSQL. > > But knowledge doesn't hurt, and as someone pointed out, you can't tell the > quality of the software from the names of your source code. > But it sure makes it a lot more difficult to understand what's going on, I'll > grant you that :-) That was my point. It is very hard to make sense of the code, at least for me. -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
I have attached the original message and my reply. The person was asking how we could used SAP "to see what postgres can learn". My reply was to say that I couldn't figure how how to learn anything from the code. That was my only statement. I did not trash SAP DB. Seems using their development tools may make the code much easier to understand. Hopefully someone will try. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi guys, > > > > I've used the open source SAPDB and the performance is pretty damned > > impressive. However, 'open source' in application to it is somewhat > > deceptive, since you have to make it with SAP's proprietary build > > tools/environment. > > > > In my opinion, however, it would be worth closely auditing SAP DB to see > > what postgres can learn. > > I downloaded it. The directories are two characters in length, the > files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need > I say more. :-) -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
I see one of my mistakes here. The person clearly said "you have to make it with SAP's proprietary build tools/environment." I didn't realize you need the build tools/environment to meaningfully view the code. Of course, as someone else stated, the build tools/environment have been open-sourced. Can someone confirm that the build tools/environment makes the code easier to understand? That would be good, and make it easier for us to learn from it. > I have attached the original message and my reply. The person was > asking how we could used SAP "to see what postgres can learn". My reply > was to say that I couldn't figure how how to learn anything from the > code. That was my only statement. > > I did not trash SAP DB. Seems using their development tools may make > the code much easier to understand. Hopefully someone will try. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Hi guys, > > > > > > I've used the open source SAPDB and the performance is pretty damned > > > impressive. However, 'open source' in application to it is somewhat > > > deceptive, since you have to make it with SAP's proprietary build > > > tools/environment. > > > > > > In my opinion, however, it would be worth closely auditing SAP DB to see > > > what postgres can learn. > > > > I downloaded it. The directories are two characters in length, the > > files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need > > I say more. :-) > > -- > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000 > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026 > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > -- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania19026
Horst Herb wrote: > > I downloaded it. The directories are two characters in length, the > > files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need > > I say more. :-) > > 1.) What is wrong with a mixture of C++, Python and Pascal? Nothing IMHO. > > 2.) The directory structure is probably the consequence of the development > tools (produced automatically). Such a structure can have advantages, too. > > 3.) I left Germany 6 years ago. I don't know what happened in the meantime, > but at that time (and the past 10 years before that) virtually any major > business and the majority of large hospitals were running on SAP. AFAIK, > similar in other european countries. Complaints about the horrendous price > structure (par with Oracle) - yes. Complaints about crappy user interfaces - > yes. Complaints about arrogant support team - yes. But *no* complaints > regarding data integrity, robustness, and almost no complaints regarding > performance. Don't mix up SAP's application (R/3 today and R/2 before) with SAP DB. Most of the customers I've seen (and I'veworked as an SAP R/3 base-consultant for the past 10 years) ran SAP R/3 on top of Oracle. So that's where the integrity and robustness came from. And I've got may complaints WRT performance - but fortunately our projects where usually located in the multi-$M range, so simply throwing bucks into iron worked. Jan -- #======================================================================# # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. # # Let's break this rule - forgive me. # #================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com # _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Bruce Momjian schrieb: > > > Hi guys, > > > > I've used the open source SAPDB and the performance is pretty damned > > impressive. However, 'open source' in application to it is somewhat > > deceptive, since you have to make it with SAP's proprietary build > > tools/environment. > > > > In my opinion, however, it would be worth closely auditing SAP DB to see > > what postgres can learn. > > I downloaded it. The directories are two characters in length, the > files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need > I say more. :-) > Well, I used to use PostgreSQL and Adabas / SAP-DB and after that it's pretty much clear now, that there're not so many arguments for PostgreSQL. Marten