Обсуждение: Health warning:

Hi,

These mailing lists are for asking questions and providing constructive
feedback, as well as collaboration, on PostgreSQL and the surrounding
software ecosystem. Please do not use the mailing lists to make comments
that can be considered personal attacks on people who are maintainers on
pgAdmin4 or any other project.

If you have constructive feedback for the group that is maintaining
pgadmin4 as well as any contributions you would like to make, I
recommend providing through the resources they make available here:

https://www.pgadmin.org/support/

Thanks,

Jonathan

Without criticism or complaint , how will you improve your standards  ? 

People often  overlook  the upside of criticism and complaint

On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 14:17 Jonathan S. Katz, <jkatz@postgresql.org> wrote:

Hi,

These mailing lists are for asking questions and providing constructive
feedback, as well as collaboration, on PostgreSQL and the surrounding
software ecosystem. Please do not use the mailing lists to make comments
that can be considered personal attacks on people who are maintainers on
pgAdmin4 or any other project.

If you have constructive feedback for the group that is maintaining
pgadmin4 as well as any contributions you would like to make, I
recommend providing through the resources they make available here:

https://www.pgadmin.org/support/

Thanks,

Jonathan

If you want to help so much, why not create a free tool yourself and implement your suggestions?!

Pedro

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 17, 2019, at 10:30 AM, Zahid Rahman <zahidr1000@gmail.com> wrote:



Without criticism or complaint , how will you improve your standards  ? 

People often  overlook  the upside of criticism and complaint

On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 14:17 Jonathan S. Katz, <jkatz@postgresql.org> wrote:

Hi,

These mailing lists are for asking questions and providing constructive
feedback, as well as collaboration, on PostgreSQL and the surrounding
software ecosystem. Please do not use the mailing lists to make comments
that can be considered personal attacks on people who are maintainers on
pgAdmin4 or any other project.

If you have constructive feedback for the group that is maintaining
pgadmin4 as well as any contributions you would like to make, I
recommend providing through the resources they make available here:

https://www.pgadmin.org/support/

Thanks,

Jonathan

On 12/17/2019 9:58 AM, Zahid Rahman wrote:
>
> I am not responsible for documents or software development here so why
> do I need [to] help  ?

Because this is an open source project that is supported by the
community. Are you a part of the community?

- G

--
siamo arrivati sani e salvi

On 12/17/2019 10:17 AM, Zahid Rahman wrote:
> Open source and community doesn't  have to mean *crap*   but it is free.

You don't have to contribute and, likewise, you shouldn't expect support
... because, as you have indicated, it is free.

- G

--
siamo arrivati sani e salvi

Greetings,

As Jonathan mentioned earlier, constructive feedback is welcome, but
we've moved pretty far from that at this point in the thread, and this
isn't really the appropriate list for pgAdmin anyway.

If you'd like to offer further constructive feedback, I encourage you
to provide specific technical comments to the appropriate list.  If you
have the skills and time to provide patches, even better.

There doesn't seem to be much more to discuss in this particular thread,
so let's end it here.

Thanks!

Stephen

Zahid,

Please contribute, your view is important. Quoting a commercial enterprise and how they choose to spend their development resource is a moot point.

Best Regards,

 

Adam

---

From: Zahid Rahman <zahidr1000@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 11:29:41 PM
To: Gerald Cheves <gcheves@verizon.net>
Cc: pgsql-novice@lists.postgresql.org <pgsql-novice@lists.postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: Health warning:

 

By support you mean I should do free tests and let you know where the problem  are.

Anyway alot of talk but fail to address the issue , why a company  "EnterpriseDB"  has provided installer.  The fact I have not received  to my original  query means you are all using the free  installer or managed to install it with sheer luck.

On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 15:23 Gerald Cheves, <gcheves@verizon.net> wrote:

On 12/17/2019 10:17 AM, Zahid Rahman wrote:
> Open source and community doesn't  have to mean *crap*   but it is free.

You don't have to contribute and, likewise, you shouldn't expect support
... because, as you have indicated, it is free.

- G

--
siamo arrivati sani e salvi

Internet Email Confidentiality Footer: This email and any files transmitted with it contain privileged/confidential information intended for the addressee. Neither the confidentiality of nor any privilege in the email is waived, lost or destroyed by reason that it has been transmitted other than to the addressee. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message, and notify us immediately.

Zahid

Open Source means Free Testing and Free code writing,  we all benefit.   You can write GUI pgadmin4 installer for  Linux

We welcome  CONSTRUCTIVE criticism  throwing up a link,  or snarky youtube video then  saying "see I'm right",  will not get traction with people it turns them off.  Remember we are doing this for FREE

Specifically how does EDB page support your position???

Enterprise DB maintains the windows installer as a give back to the Community and promote Postgresql..   Postgresql installers have come a long way over the years,  I remember a time when everything on Linux was  compile then install what a horrible amount of pain, Just getting the CD to boot  to install Linux could  take  days because of hardware issues.   

When writing criticism first step,  Document the issue, and be specific,  take screen shots, note the issue clearly then post it..  

Postgresql has several ways to note and document issues,  Mailing Lists, Wiki, IRC, create a Blog Post and post it on Planet.postgresql.org

99% of linux installers are done from the command line, and yes it goes horribly wrong at times. 

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 10:33 AM Adam Lipinski <ALipinski@exactal.com> wrote:

Zahid,

Please contribute, your view is important. Quoting a commercial enterprise and how they choose to spend their development resource is a moot point.

Best Regards,

 

Adam

---

From: Zahid Rahman <zahidr1000@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 11:29:41 PM
To: Gerald Cheves <gcheves@verizon.net>
Cc: pgsql-novice@lists.postgresql.org <pgsql-novice@lists.postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: Health warning:

 

By support you mean I should do free tests and let you know where the problem  are.

Anyway alot of talk but fail to address the issue , why a company  "EnterpriseDB"  has provided installer.  The fact I have not received  to my original  query means you are all using the free  installer or managed to install it with sheer luck.

On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 15:23 Gerald Cheves, <gcheves@verizon.net> wrote:

On 12/17/2019 10:17 AM, Zahid Rahman wrote:
> Open source and community doesn't  have to mean *crap*   but it is free.

You don't have to contribute and, likewise, you shouldn't expect support
... because, as you have indicated, it is free.

- G

--
siamo arrivati sani e salvi

Internet Email Confidentiality Footer: This email and any files transmitted with it contain privileged/confidential information intended for the addressee. Neither the confidentiality of nor any privilege in the email is waived, lost or destroyed by reason that it has been transmitted other than to the addressee. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message, and notify us immediately.

The original problem is same as 

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/40354551/pg4admin-401-unauthorized-error

https://www.postgresql-archive.org/401-Unauthorized-on-first-run-of-pgadmin4-td6029337.html

https://superuser.com/questions/1322086/how-to-fix-the-pgadmin-4-v3-0-port-number

I have done two clean operating systems  and postgres pgadmin4.

16  emails but not one response to the problem I logged for two days. 

I guess you all like to argue.

On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 18:47 Justin, <zzzzz.graf@gmail.com> wrote:

HI Zahid

After 16  emails I think we are getting close to  CONSTRUCTIVE  criticism and to a valid complaint, that needs to be addressed.  The point being made is, the  install scripts need some  validation code on paths, additional dependency checks, and better documentation on how the install process works for those that do not know APT, etc......

Take you points, document why the install went sideways/failed , what was done to fix it, and how these changes will fix the problem going forward..  I'm sure this will be taken care of... 

AFter 16 emails no one  knows what is wrong with the Installer,  all we know

1: it sucks,

2: see this video for proof,

3: see this link that agrees ,  

4: GUI is better

5: No one on pgadmin team can program, 

6: now for the stern lecture on good programming ..

Do you see the breakdown in communication?  There is no substance/action item with the complaint.  Its just a complaint.

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 12:22 PM Zahid Rahman <zahidr1000@gmail.com> wrote:

 

> But how does a GUI installer fix an issue with a path, typos, missing dependencies, or mistakes the install scripts?   Is there a Linux GUI installer that works across all the flavors of Linux, what about  BSD, or MAC,   

The answer is simpler then you think.

Look at this code . Even the though the variable is declared as Datasource with an if statement it is double checked for validation and constraint.

if (value instanceof DataSource)

I call it VALIDATION and CONSTRAINT code.

As application developers we provide drop lists where we can so we don't risk the user doing a typo. That's CONSTRAINT code. You can do same with command line argument. check for argv[1] content , don't just start execution based on the assumption the user typed correctly. I know the validation code will probably be 5 times more than the FUNCTIONAL code. That is necessary for good software.

VALIDATION / CONSTRAINT code will be far greater than functional code.

an example:

Don't just open a file .

Don't assume.

Check if the file is open first. That's validation code.

Check for path values to see if they exist , check for operating system. For example when you go to download page. You should go to download page appropriate for your operating system. That is a result of a check being made.

There is no reason why a GUI installer cant work across all *nix . Just validate the operating system then call the relevant source code.

There is no magic in programming. What will happen is exactly what you wrote will happen after you validated. If you did not validate, just started doing then that is like crossing the road without looking left or right. The user is the one who is getting run over by bus. That is to say the user has been thrown under a bus because the programmer did not look left ,right , listen.

This is my own personal view.

There are three components which make up good code or deliverable product.

FUNCTIONAL code.

VALIDATION code.

CONSTRAINT code.

I am always and sometimes for fun checking for functional code and validation. Once in a while one does come across software as a programming tool or an API which has all three components.

In your suggestion (MAC/BSD)  check for OS type then act appropriately. that's VALIDATION  code. Think of functional code without validation or constraint code as inappropriate or out of control behaviour.

Inappropriate  behaviour warrants a health warning  :)  don't you think  ?

On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 16:34 Justin, <zzzzz.graf@gmail.com> wrote:

Taking this off this list.  way of topic for Postgresql  Novice

You are right testing needs to be done on a clean install and done on a not so clean systems...

But how does a GUI installer fix an issue with a path, typos, missing dependencies, or mistakes the install scripts?   Is there a Linux GUI installer that works across all the flavors of Linux, what about  BSD, or MAC,   

Pathing, system settings, and dependency hell aka DLL Hell have been around for decades,  no one has come up with a solution to this problem,  The latest attempt is to just hide the problem,  wrap everything in Virtual Environment,  Docker,  or something.   The problem does not go away it was just morphed into a new set of problems.   

Consider the language GO,   it compiles all its dependency into a single  BIN/EXE file,  NOT a new idea,  Xbase languages did that years ago, 

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 11:04 AM Zahid Rahman <zahidr1000@gmail.com> wrote:

The simple solution is that who ever is testing the pgadmin4  installation  , if they did it on a clean machine  , it would save alot of pain. 

When I worked in a software house I followed this practice every time. For every project I did a clean install. I know it is time consuming. But it is a best practice needs to be followed.

Because I knew I may have a setting or software installed from previous project , so the user environment  would be different from development environment. 

Linux still has problems. Fedora 31 has wifi driver but ubuntu doesn't so I am using USB wifi dongle with my new laptop.

On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 15:46 Justin, <zzzzz.graf@gmail.com> wrote:

Zahid

Open Source means Free Testing and Free code writing,  we all benefit.   You can write GUI pgadmin4 installer for  Linux

We welcome  CONSTRUCTIVE criticism  throwing up a link,  or snarky youtube video then  saying "see I'm right",  will not get traction with people it turns them off.  Remember we are doing this for FREE

Specifically how does EDB page support your position???

Enterprise DB maintains the windows installer as a give back to the Community and promote Postgresql..   Postgresql installers have come a long way over the years,  I remember a time when everything on Linux was  compile then install what a horrible amount of pain, Just getting the CD to boot  to install Linux could  take  days because of hardware issues.   

When writing criticism first step,  Document the issue, and be specific,  take screen shots, note the issue clearly then post it..  

Postgresql has several ways to note and document issues,  Mailing Lists, Wiki, IRC, create a Blog Post and post it on Planet.postgresql.org

99% of linux installers are done from the command line, and yes it goes horribly wrong at times. 

On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 10:33 AM Adam Lipinski <ALipinski@exactal.com> wrote:

Zahid,

Please contribute, your view is important. Quoting a commercial enterprise and how they choose to spend their development resource is a moot point.

Best Regards,

 

Adam

---

From: Zahid Rahman <zahidr1000@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2019 11:29:41 PM
To: Gerald Cheves <gcheves@verizon.net>
Cc: pgsql-novice@lists.postgresql.org <pgsql-novice@lists.postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: Health warning:

 

By support you mean I should do free tests and let you know where the problem  are.

Anyway alot of talk but fail to address the issue , why a company  "EnterpriseDB"  has provided installer.  The fact I have not received  to my original  query means you are all using the free  installer or managed to install it with sheer luck.

On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 15:23 Gerald Cheves, <gcheves@verizon.net> wrote:

On 12/17/2019 10:17 AM, Zahid Rahman wrote:
> Open source and community doesn't  have to mean *crap*   but it is free.

You don't have to contribute and, likewise, you shouldn't expect support
... because, as you have indicated, it is free.

- G

--
siamo arrivati sani e salvi

Internet Email Confidentiality Footer: This email and any files transmitted with it contain privileged/confidential information intended for the addressee. Neither the confidentiality of nor any privilege in the email is waived, lost or destroyed by reason that it has been transmitted other than to the addressee. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message, and notify us immediately.

Greetings,

* Zahid Rahman (zahidr1000@gmail.com) wrote:
> I know a database whose name begins with O that does this.

That doesn't make it a good idea.

> the user types:
> *psql  -U postgres *
>
> response:
> *PROBLEM: psql: error: could not connect to server: FATAL:  Peer
> authentication failed for user "postgres"*

This indicates that the user you're connecting as doesn't have
permission to log into the database as the 'postgres' user.

> *SOLUTION: change "local  all all  peer" in file
> /etc/postgresql/12/main/pg_hba.conf *
> *to "local  all all  trust".create password then change  back.*

Using "trust" there actually means that you're able to log into the
database as any user and is terribly insecure.

Thanks,

Stephen

Greetings,

* Zahid Rahman (zahidr1000@gmail.com) wrote:
> You have to set to trust from peer the first time you download and install
> postgres.
> Because there is no default password.
> After you create a password.
> Then you can reset from trust.

No- peer auth allows the "postgres" unix user, which is the user that
the database runs as, to connect.

To do so, you would first "sudo su - postgres" and then run psql, and
then you'll be able to connect without any need for a password.  This is
exactly what 'peer' auth is for and how it works and it's quite secure.

There's no need to ever change the authentication method to be 'trust'
and I don't recommend doing so because it's very insecure.

> You also have to reboot your computer each time you change
> etc/postgresql/12/main/pg_hba.conf.
> at the very least restart the database.

You don't have to restart the computer or the database when changes are
made to pg_hba.conf- you just need to issue a "reload".

Thanks,

Stephen

 > I don't recommend doing so because it's very insecure.

Sir, nothing is really secure.

There is at least one person with full privileges.

On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, 21:41 Stephen Frost, <sfrost@snowman.net> wrote:

Greetings,

* Zahid Rahman (zahidr1000@gmail.com) wrote:
> You have to set to trust from peer the first time you download and install
> postgres.
> Because there is no default password.
> After you create a password.
> Then you can reset from trust.

No- peer auth allows the "postgres" unix user, which is the user that
the database runs as, to connect.

To do so, you would first "sudo su - postgres" and then run psql, and
then you'll be able to connect without any need for a password.  This is
exactly what 'peer' auth is for and how it works and it's quite secure.

There's no need to ever change the authentication method to be 'trust'
and I don't recommend doing so because it's very insecure.

> You also have to reboot your computer each time you change
> etc/postgresql/12/main/pg_hba.conf.
> at the very least restart the database.

You don't have to restart the computer or the database when changes are
made to pg_hba.conf- you just need to issue a "reload".

Thanks,

Stephen

------ Original Message ------

From: "Zahid Rahman" <zahidr1000@gmail.com>

... I know a database whose name begins with O that does this ...

GREATTTTTTTT!!!  Then why are you hanging out here?

---