Re: Hijack!

In response to "Gregory Williamson" <Gregory.Williamson@digitalglobe.com>:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org on behalf of Joshua D. Drake
> Sent: Tue 12/11/2007 9:43 AM
> To: rod@iol.ie
> Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Hijack!
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:31:40 +0000
> "Raymond O'Donnell" <rod@iol.ie> wrote:
>
> > > // >>>>
> > > Please note in particular the following points of netiquette:
> > >
> > > * Don't top-post, as it makes for confusing reading.
> > >
> > > * Don't start a new thread by replying to an old one, because [insert
> > > suitable technical explanation here].
> > >
> > > Failure to observe the above may result in your question going
> > > unanswered. // <<<<<
> >
> >
> > O.k. this might be a bit snooty but frankly it is almost 2008. If you
> > are still a top poster, you obviously don't care about the people's
> > content that you are replying to, to have enough wits to not top post.
> >
> > However, I would also note that in "windows" world, it is very common
> > to top post. I am constantly retraining very smart, just very ignorant
> > customers.
>
> * Not all mail clients deal well with inline/bottom quoting (manually
> added "> " to lines here since my mail reader does not do so automatically
> -- imagine doing so for a complex quote!)

I recommend finding a better mail program.  There are lots out there.
Being forced to use substandard software in this day and age is a crime.

> * Top posting is very common in companies with lots of blackberry (etc)
> users since they seem to see only tops easily.

Illicit drug use is very common in many areas.  Denigration of women
simply because they are women is common in many parts of the world.

Crying "everyone else is doing it" is not a valid argument in my book.

> * my mail client *always* starts at the top of the message. For
> rapid/internal mails top posting works better because the answer/most
> recent is always at the top. Complex messages do deserve in-posting but
> not always easy, especially if you have to do it manually). Does your
> mail browser always start at the bottom ? I always see the top of a
> message first. Simple threads work very well this way -- complicated
> ones collapse under top-posting.

This is a tired, overused argument that has little value.

> * a lot of us have to use what ever the company provides as mail server.

Are you saying your mail server forces you to top post?  That's a new one.

> Exchange sucks but I'd rather not quit my job just because _you_ have a
> problem reading mail that does not conform to the "T" to your
> expectations. And there is a limit to how much time I want to spend
> manually formatting your mail to respond to it.

There's a limit to the amount of time I'm willing to spend trying to make
heads/tails of an incomprehensible email.  I think I deleted over 100
emails last week after seeing how badly formatted they were, even though
I probably had the expertise to offer helpful information.

I don't complain about people top-posting because I don't like it.  I
complain because it makes it more difficult for me to help, and thus
less likely to do so, and I know that other, knowledgeable people feel
the same way.  I complain about top-posting because I know that the
person is less likely to get helpful replies if they format their
email poorly.

> Note that a lot of postGIS mail list posts are top-posted and the
> complaint rate is vanishingly small. Yet somehow business clanks on.
> Imagine that! And I can't even use exchange/outlook -- web interface
> to Micro$soft really sucks.

Again, you're asking a community to offer you free help in spite of the
fact that your tools suck.  I'm not saying nobody will do it, all I'm
saying is that if you make it too difficult for people to help, they
won't.

> * Try to see the world from a perspective other that your own
> (admittedly superior) one ! Not everyone is so advanced.

I do see it from other perspectives.  I can still see it from the
perspective of a Bill Moran from 10 years ago who got chewed out for
top-posting because I didn't know anything and didn't get very good
help because I didn't formulate good questions.  That's a Bill Moran
who learned _because_ people pointed out what I was doing wrong.

I'm trying to pass the favor on when I point out problems with folks
emails.  I'm not trying to be an asshole -- that happens naturally.

> * Get a life

Of course.  How about:

1) I'll stop replying to emails that are formatted too badly to understand.

2) You accept that the rules of this community are "no top posting" and
   stop dragging this discussion out and accept that top-posted emails
   won't be responded to.  Since nobody smart will offer advice on how
   to better format emails any more, the newbies will remain ignorant
   and never learn.  That's obviously the best thing we can do for the
   community.

Actually, I'd rather just continue to politely point out the rules of
the list to newbies and help the world become a better place.  But I'm
an idealist ... and an asshole.

--
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com